The Burmilla/Tiffanie Program  History
(return to index page)

1) The Beginning
2) Update 2001 the politics of it all
3)  Update 2007 CFA Application and outcome
4) Update 2010 CFA application -- enjoy-- all the same players 10 years later.
5)  CFA Board Members Voted in the Burmillas into Misc. Class, 6-February-2011.    Our comments.
Below that you will find, what we understand to be is the standard  to which the cat will be now be judged in CFA . A true copy should shortly be posted to the CFA web site. Please note the CCA standard is very different and is more closely aligned to the original GCCF standard (that is linked in the comments). Posted June 2011

The Beginning
The Burmilla is a breed within the Asian Group that originated in the United Kingdom some 15 years ago (1981) as the result of an accidental mating between a Chinchilla Persian male and a Platinum/Lilac Burmese female. The resulting offspring were so impressive in type and vigour that it was decided to proceed with a breeding program using this hybrid with Burmese cats. The Chinchilla is only used once for the foundation breeding of a new line. The Burmilla is  recognized for Championship by the GCCF and FIFE , having passed through experimental and provisional statuses . South Africa, Australia, Holland Switzerland and Denmark are some of the other countries where breeding programs are taking place. The Asian Group is the name used, in the above programs, for cats of Foreign Burmese type, with non-Foreign Burmese coat colour, pattern or length. "Asian" cats bear the same relationship to the Foreign Burmese as the "Orientals" do to the Siamese.

The breeds within the Asian Group are:

Any of the above coat colour patterns can appear in long and short haired cats. In the United Kingdom, and other parts of the world where these cats are recognized, only the shaded, short haired cats are referred to as Burmillas. All the other coat colour patterns in short haired cats are referred to as Asians and all colour patterns in the long hair are designated as Tiffanies. For more detailed information on the British and European Asian Group we suggest that later you go to the home page of the Asian Cat Society in England.

In December 1995, Strathkirk and Horizons imported two long haired Burmillas, (Tiffanies), from England. They were Moonspinners Mercury and Meerani, who were then shown Experimental Status in the Canadian Cat Association. They were bred subsequently to a variety of Foreign and Traditional Burmese. Some 80 of their offspring, (short haired Burmillas carrying the long haired gene), followed. Twenty of these Burmillas were kept for further breeding. We now breed Burmilla to Burmilla and have begun to produce Tiffanies in approximately 25% of the breedings. All Burmillas were granted New Breed Status in November 1997. Our Burmillas began showing in the Spring of 1998 and  gained Championship Status by 1999. A limited number of these kittens have been for sale and are proving to be very popular.

In order to simplify acceptance of this breed in Canada and to facilitate the subsequent registration and judging processes, these cats are identified as Short or Long Haired Burmillas and are further described by their pattern (ie. self, smoke, shaded, Tipped, Tabby, etc). This simplification also avoids confusion with the commonly use descriptor "Asian" (ie the cat is of Asian type)and  the American breed of Chantilly / Tiffany already recognized by some associations. Thus all Canadian cats from this breed pool are Burmilla(s), the term Asian is not used.

In December 1996, we imported a Chinchilla Persian , Chico's Christian from England. He was selected for his natural head shape and carriage of the golden gene. Christian was subsequently bred to selected Foreign and Traditional Burmese Queens to produce F1 Burmillas. This was done to produce a completely different line of Burmillas, thus increasing the gene pool. This part of the program takes about 3 years.

The process of producing a full Burmilla (or Asian using the English terminology) from a foundation breeding is complex, not for the faint hearted, and is as follows.  (This below is a direct copy of an email from Ms. Naomie Johnston, Asian Breed secretary  in response to our question the next  year.)

Step 1: Burmese x Chinchilla This gives 1st generation, (F1), Burmillas. This results in Shaded or Tipped varieties or occasionally Ticked Tabbies if the Chinchilla carries Golden.

Step 2: F1 Burmilla back again to Burmese This gives 2nd generation, (F2), Burmillas. At this stage you can expect to get Tabbies, Selfs and Smokes as well as Shaded or Tipped varieties.

Step 3: F2 Burmilla to an unrelated Burmilla (any variety) This gives 3rd generation, (F3), Burmillas. Again any variety is possible, including longhaired Burmillas, (Tiffanies), if the F2 cats both carry the longhair gene.

Step 4: F3 Burmilla should be mated back to Burmese This gives the 4th generation, (F4), or full Burmillas.

As a protocol, in our tracking nomenclature, we hold a cat at F3 status until it has gone back to a Burmese. We find that it is sometimes useful to repeat breedings F3 to F3 to hold a recessive ie long hair. We also note in the pedigrees that not many English Breeders have held to this complete program.
After F4 is accomplished, matings should mainly be Burmilla to Burmilla but can at any time, go back to the Burmese, which is an allowable out-cross to the full Burmilla.
In simple terms the objective of the Burmilla breeding program is to import the Long hair, Black colour, and Silver undercoat genetics, from the Chinchilla Persian while keeping the sleek, no undercoat, fur and the outgoing interactive personality of the Burmese.

The following pages show some of the breeding lines as they have developed.



Update as of Feb 2001 (the politics of it all)
In the fall of 2000 Phoenix based Theresa Meyers authored a  feature for Cat Fancy Magazine on the Asian cat.
We note the following quote:
 "European Burmese are the key to the recognition of the Asians in this country.  European Burmese have provisional status with the C.F.A.  Once they reach championship status we have a ground work for their child breed, the Asians, " says Kim Ghorbrial, owner of Bes Cattery in Portland Ore., and one of the original breeders of Asians in the United States.  "The difficulty is in establishing the breed with enough breeders who are following the guidelines established by the G.C.C.F and the U.F.O.  This means the breed must be bred from European Burmese, not American Burmese, which are a different breed with a different look.  Many breeders in Canada are using American Burmese, and it’s not the same cat."

Ms. Naomi Johnson, Secretary of the Asian Group Cat Society, (a cat club in England), is also quoted therein as saying "they (Asians) are basically Burmese with different colors, patterns and coat lengths…"  Ms Johnson is also quoted in the Nov. 2000 issue of Your Cat, an English publication, as saying a Tiffanie is "A cross between Burmese and longhair Chinchillas".

Our comments follow:
Our views on "European" Vs "North American Burmese" (there is no such thing as an American Burmese) are well stated on our Burmese page.  As to our cats being different, we refer you to the history of the English Burmese in the book "The Burmese Cat". This book is a publication of the Burmese Cat Club in England in 1994, edited by Robine Pocock published by Unwin Brothers Ltd. for the Burmese Cat Club Benevolent Fund. The reader should know in reviewing page 16 of that text that Halton Ridge, home of Halton Ridge Alfie, a British founding cat, is within less than a 1 hr. drive from Toronto. Halton Ridge Alfie was a Silkwood cat base in Missauga Ont, a suburb of Toronto.The Wai-ling cats are is Shy boys pedigree  For those who don't have access to that book, the point I am making here is that Canadian cats and specifically our cats forbearer's were used in the founding of European Burmese. In fact, a review of the posted 12 generation pedigree of our European boy, Maple Leaf, illustrates just how much Alphie is the European cat. Ms Ghorbrial does not know her pedigrees.

The 4 generation breeding protocol described above on this page, is a quote from an e-mail sent to us by Ms. Johnson in the Winter of 1996.  The documentation that she provided with it was the basis for the breeding standards and registration requirements accepted by the Canadian Cat Association.
Ms. Ghorbrial is a known C.F.A. European Burmese breeder. In her public e-mails,  she described an accidental breeding in 1998, between her European Burmese and an Abyssinian.  We were surprised that she received support from Ms. Johnson, who suggested that the offspring be called Asians.
Most countries who recognize cats from the Asian Group, like us, have followed the G.C.C.F. standards and have begun their breeding programs with English Asians.  Apparently, unknown to us, and a number of other breeders, both in England and elsewhere, the G.C.C.F.  Registration Policy had been significantly changed in 1996 and again in 2000.
Copies of the Registration Policies dating back to 1993, which we have just received from G.C.C.F., are attached/linked.

It is our understanding that the 1996 breed policy change was instituted in order to open the gene pool to accommodate some long ago past breedings and a allow very few breeders who would bring in specific genes such as the "spotted tabby". We have experienced the spotted tabby, all things come in time, shortcuts create problems.

The new 1996/2000 breed policy document enables breeding of Asians to "anything" and is, in our opinion, a recipe for a "moggie" and a shortcut to a new breed, that the UFO have jumped upon.  The Burmese and Chinchilla are no longer required.  The current 4 generation protocol now requires that the offspring of an Asian X "anything" (with a few minor exceptions), must go back to an Asian OR (and we underline or) Burmese 3 times prior to being a full registered Asian.  We certainly question the ability of Ms. Ghorbrial and other U.F.O. breeders, to breed a cat that is anything like our Burmillas or the international Asian.   If they follow the revised standard, as they claim they will, they may now breed to "anything", thus providing the public with a very different cat . One wonders what Ms. Ghorbrial et. al. would think of an Asian to  -- say a --- Maine Coon or Pixie Bob, next door.;-)!!!

In 1981 the original Chinchilla / Burmese cross of Baroness Miranda Von Kirchberg required "new breed " status by G.C.C.F. and took some 15 years to accomplish.   How is it now, that an Asian to "anything" (with a few minor exceptions), does not require the same?

We suspect that the G.C.C.F.’s Executive committee overlooked the implications of what they were ratifying in 96/2000.

It is our intention to breed Burmillas (Asians) from the original Burmese / Chinchilla ancestry.  We will continue with the breeding protocol wherein the Chinchilla is used only once in the foundation of a line. The Canadian Cat Association breed standard is attached/linked. The allowable out breed section is at the end of the document.

Ms. Ghorbrial’s comments re: "serious efforts are underway to have the new breed recognized by the C.F.A."  would seem highly unlikely to us!  Most, very conservative North American breed associations, particularly the C.F.A., will take even longer to recognize the Asian with this new 2000 non-uniform "catch all" registration policy.
The waters have become very muddy  for the Burmilla's future. For instance, we note that it has taken the "Red" Burmese 25 years to be accepted in North America.  We still endure the "Barn Cat" epitaph.

We think that the U.F.O. should call these cats, as lovely as they may be, something other than "Asians"; however, we understand that new breed status is a long and difficult process.

We do not understand why Ms. Johnson, in her public statements, continues to say that the Asian comes from a Burmese / Chinchilla cross.  Sadly, this is no longer the truth.  We continue to hope that the Asian Group Cat Society will rectify the situation.

end
Update July 2002
It is our understanding that FIFE and various European cat registries have rejected the 1996/2000 Asian definition and continue to require that the Burmilla/Tiffanie gene pool be exclusively Burmese and Chinchilla as was the original GCCF policy. Ms Johnson is no longer breed secretary.
 Comment re Polycystic kidney disease (PKD) in Persians and Asians of Persian ancestry. This raises 2 points.
1) Our original imported Tiffanies, Meerani, and Mercury, DOB Oct. 95 ,  both still live with us and have never been sick - of anything. Christian , DOB April '96, our imported Chinchilla Persian, lives with a close friend, also in a multi cat household, and is likewise. Vet. texts suggest PKD in the inherited form has a 3-10 year window, and is autosomal dominant (Feline Husbandry N.C. Pedersen). There are no reports in these cats lines, prior or post, that we are aware of. We don't have it.
2) The 'Burmilla,' which is the cat that most people are looking for, looks like a Singapura (if one follows the GCCF definition). That is genetically  (in laymans terms) a ticked, silver tipped cat, and is of Burmese temperament. It is possibly also a super wideband cat, being tipped.
...Strathkirk Iolanthe is a good example.
Breeding an Abyssinian or Somali to a Burmese, (as does Ms Ghobrial and the UFO group) can not genetically deliver that colour, coat, or pattern. Conventional genetics has it that wide band and silver can only come from the Chinchilla. Thus, any of the UFO group who deliver 'Burmillas' have it wrong, or have Persian ancestry, unless of course they got these genetics elsewhere, which would remove them further from the original gene pool.

end
Update May 2003
Ms Ghobrial contacted CCA and requested they register her "Burmillas".   The breed policy and protocol was explained to her. Cats of other than Burmese /Persian ancestry  do not qualify.



update -  the following   email (part)was received
From: "walters" <walters@idx.com.au>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:54:21 +1100
--
Our Australian Tiffanie differs in the breeding program quite markedly to your's in that we allow going back to Chinchillas in later than foundation generation ... and we also allow outcrossing to Silver Longhair Exotic.  We only accept silvers - and so far we're producing lovely kittens ... but not yet uniform type.  We're up to Gen 3.  ... my latest two litters - both litters being sired by a Beechbrae Scottish Longhair Exotic.  The kittens are really valuable to us since we've been able to access completely new Chinchilla lines to those available in Australia.
 ..
Colleen Walters
Kurranulla Cattery - PKD tested negative
<http://walters.idx.com.au>http://walters.idx.com.au
<http://silvertails.idx.com.au>http://silvertails.idx.com.au
ed note: It is our understanding that an "Exotic" is  a shorthair Chinchilla i.e. same breed lines, and that the longhair version is fundamentally identical to the Chinchilla by way of breed pool genetics. The Exotic question (of allowable out cross) did come up in our early discussions with CCA. We did not go with it. That decision was not so much to exclude but rather to remain less complicated. The ultimate test with these "variants" would be who's version is acceptable to whom(association to association).


Update April 2007
The Asian application
    In 2005 Ms. Ghorbrial, Bess cattery, contacted us (Horizons) with a view to supporting an application to CFA for recognition of the 'Asian' cat that she proposed to undertake. During those discussions, initiated and mediated by Pat Swihart of Charm Cattery, it was agreed that no cat would be taken forward with a birth date after Jan 2000 that had other than European Burmese or Chinchilla Persian in its ancestry. Bess developed the application and made submission to CFA. Horizon supported the application and initiated construction of  a web site.  Much of the application material was incorporated into the web site.
    Both Bess and Horizons are European Burmese breeders and at this time are members of the European Burmese Breed council (Horizon was not a Breed council member in early 2006). Horizons is and was a member of the European Burmese breed club, Bess is and was a member of the WEBS (Worldwide European Burmese Society). Both of these breed club's presidents Wayne Trevithan and Ann-Louise De Voe respectively took a position in opposition to this application. The clubs followed suit. Ann Louise DweVoe was Breed Council secretary in 2006.
    Given the precarious nature of the application and applicants at the time, and the rising tide of opposition, is was mutually decided to withdraw the Asian application to CFA. That application was withdrawn by telephone call to the CFA office and the application along with the considerable deposit was returned to, and received by Bess cattery on or about  Jan 16 2006.
    We would note that Applications for New Breed Status required a presentation before the CFA Breeds and Standard Board in Feb of 2006 in Texas. Most of the Asian Breeders are in the northern United States and Canada. Any such show requires considerable planning and expense.  For more see CFA web site

    The following was taken from the Board minutes of  Feb 2006 and are from that meeting as provided to us by the breed council. The rational statement is from the Breed council and we understand to be the position as put forward by Mr. Trevithan at the time.

3.   Do you feel the acceptance of the Asian Cat for CFA registration status would have an effect on the European Burmese breed?

RATIONALE: The Asian standard is basically word for word identical to the European Burmese standard. The Asian breed mimics the European Burmese breed in genotype and phenotype. Referring to WIAB, which is in effect with CFA, the Asian breed is out of order.

      YES: 11                                         NO: 8

BOARD ACTION: Informational only.
   
We were surprised to see this and emailed the Breed council the following:

Dear David and fellow Breed Council members:

I am writing in reference to  concerns with the board meeting minutes attached to David's email.  The paragraph in question is copied below and reads:

(see copy above)

 The concerns are threefold as follows:

1) Is is our understanding that as party to this action of the Asian, the Asian Application was withdrawn in the summer of 2005  (approximately 6  months prior to the 2006 board meeting). Therefore, any discussion of a "Standard" was, in and of itself "Out of Order". We do not  understand how this piece of information could have escaped the chair of this meeting.
2)"Identical" , "Mimics" and "WIAB"
 Below are some "Asians". They are neither identical nor mimic the European Burmese phenotypically or genotypically.

findus2midnitecloud

  WIAB

  A search of CFA's web site contains one obscure reference to this term. Therefore, how can WIAB be "in effect".  Breeds are defined by  their standard, as much as some would have it otherwise.  Some European Burmese breeders may, for their own personal reasons, object  to the application of the Asian/Burmilla,(various associations have different names), but the Breed Council must be extremely careful as to  how they allow that to be done. Whatever the criteria used to differentiate the European Burmese from the Burmese, that same criteria can  apply to the differentiation of the Asian/Burmilla from the European Burmese. To use the WIAB argument in this situation is a two edged  sword that may well do more harm than good especially when seen in the light of the present disputes concerning the current movement  of the Judging process towards the traditional cobby North American Burmese type. There are many in the cat world who believe "a  Burmese is a Burmese".

Further, granted there is much in the Burmilla/Asian that does mimic the Burmese.   That is and always was, intentional.  It is not the same  however.  The program is considerably more but no less than the program that originally introduced the red gene to the European  Burmese that you all prize so highly.  The only difference is that it was separated out under another breed name in order that there be  order, not confusion as has occurred in New Zealand.


3)The Asian Breed is out of order.
This is ridiculous.  It is the kind of comment one would expect to find pointed out and highlighted in the humor section on the NY times.A Cat or a breed can not be out of Order.  I know we love our cats but they do not have standing at meetings.

Solutions and Request:

It is my opinion that CFA has engaged in inappropriate process  (a "faux pas") --- "Punchy" notwithstanding. This comment has great potential embarrassment for CFA and the European Breed Council in the future. This paragraph should be stricken from the record.

I respectfully request that David, on behalf of the breed council:
1.  Approach the CFA chair and ask that the above noted paragraph be removed.
2.  Report back to Council, the results.

If this is not accomplished, then I would like David to take forward the motion:

"That the minutes of the Board Meeting of 2006 which contained the Asian discussion be amended to strike the above mentioned paragraph".

Best Regards,
Ivan
There was no response from the new breed secretary Mr. Davis Osage, to this or  requests for information, other than to schedule the breed council meeting June 30, (and call for agenda items) which would we assume to be part of the CFA Annual meeting and show (in Texas?? ).
There were 3 emails posted to the breed council chat group in response.  We note the correct order of business, after a motion is made, is for the chair to accept the motion.
Two from Ann Louise seeking clarification and the following:

Dear Breed Council Members:
 
I will attempt to address the issues raised on this list regarding the 2006 Breed Council ballot.  Although I am a breed council member as well, I will recuse myself in that capacity to put on my CFA Secretary hat and respond factually from that perspective, and try not to participate in a debate.  I am a new Breed Council member and have only a few grands.  I have seen only three Asians exhibited last July so I don't know enough about the breed to have formed an opinion.

Before addressing the issues, let’s discuss what a CFA Breed Council (“BC”) is and what the role of a Breed Council Secretary (“BCS”) is, so that we are all on the same page.  The BC Standing Rules state that the councils shall “serve the Executive Board in an advisory capacity.”  The BCS represents the members as best he/she can, or risks not being re-elected.  I can say from a board-member perspective that Wayne, Pat, Ann-Louise and now David have all been fierce proponents of the breed on behalf of the BC members.  Nowhere does it state that a BC member can demand certain things of the BCS or the Executive Board.  However, the Standing Rules direct that, “In no case will the Executive Board accept a new breed without providing the Breed Council Secretaries of any breed which has been used to establish a proposed new breed an opportunity to comment.”  In this respect, the mention of the Asian breed in the 2006 European Burmese ballot was by Executive Board mandate, and the then-serving BCS was correct in her actions.  If you have any questions regarding the differences between the CFA breed councils and BC’s of other associations, I refer you to Annette Wilson, the Breeds & Standards Chair (arwilson@prodigy.net).

The threefold concerns were as follows:

1.  Concern about the discussion of an Asian “standard”.  The Asian application would have included a standard provided by the promoters of the Asian breed, themselves.  Deadlines for submission and withdrawal of Breeds & Standards matters are firm.  The concerned party’s “understanding” (rather than personal knowledge?) of the withdrawal of the Asian application is “the summer of 2005”, which may have been beyond the deadline for withdrawal.  Granted, I do not know who the Breed Committee Chair for the Asian is, as that individual has never corresponded with me in my capacity as CFA Secretary (although I have many emails from that time period from individuals who opposed the breed). Bottom line is, the purported standard was submitted and withdrawn.  A failure to understand how “this piece of information could have escaped the chair of the meeting” may come from the fact that the Asian Breed Committee Chair also failed to contact the chair of the meeting – Pam DelaBar, CFA President -or the Breeds and Standards Chair by the withdrawal deadline.

2.  WIAB:  The policy is in effect, although the “obscure reference” is due to the fact that WIAB is an unofficial nickname and is used quite often as a term of art.  Please see http://cfa.org/breeds/breed-definition.html for “Definition of a Breed”.  As far as the European Burmese being threatened to be “very careful”, the fact remains that the breed is already established in Championship in CFA and the Asian is not, so this warning seems to be a little backwards.  Further, as far as the allegations that “the current movement of the judging process towards the traditional cobby North American Burmese type”, this is simply offensive and not worthy of time to defend it (or the anonymous internet website professing this same philosophy, practically word for word).

3.  The Asian Breed is out of order.  I apologize for my lack of ability to understand where this concern originates.  However, since it was brought up, the application for registration of a breed that violates the Definition of a Breed can, in fact, be ruled out of order.

Responses to Solutions and Request:

CFA has engaged in inappropriate process – “Punchy” notwithstanding.  I admit that the word “punchy” originally came from me when I forwarded the 2007 transcript to BCS Osage.  I apologize if anyone found it as offensive as it is now becoming.  The concern about the so-called “inappropriate process” arises from the 2006 meeting.  I did not intend for the 2007 term to be used as a means for the 2006 meeting to be criticized.  If the established “process” which has allegedly been inappropriately engaged in could be pointed out, perhaps I could better respond.  However, I support the CFA Executive Board’s actions at that meeting as being appropriate.  The Board is very conscientious about following proper procedure.  Anyone may attend the open session portions of any board meeting to make a first-hand judgment for themselves.  Until they do, maybe it is best not to reserve comment about how the twice-elected CFA President conducts meetings.

I respectfully request that David, on behalf of the breed council … If this is not accomplished, then I would like David to take forward the motion “That the minutes of the Board Meeting of 2006 which contained the Asian discussion be amended to strike the above mentioned paragraph.  A BCS has the option (or not) of polling his/her breed council and coming to the board with a request on behalf of the entire BC, should he so choose.  An individual is also welcome to present a request on his/her own behalf.  Because the action requested involves the CFA minutes, a request would be made to the CFA Secretary for a “correction to the minutes”.  The individual with the responsibility and control of the minutes is the CFA Secretary (currently, me), although the Executive Board has power to veto/over-rule my decisions and challenge any portion of the minutes.  In this case, I am not inclined to change the breed council proposal as published well over a year ago, for the reasons that: (1) it was appropriate for the former BCS to include it and, in fact, she was required to do so; (2) the proposed ballot was sent to the then-current BC members for approval prior to submission, and no objections were raised at that time; (3) BC members had a further opportunity to object when the ballot was mailed, at the board meeting, or within a reasonable time of publishing of the minutes; and (4) in my three terms as CFA Secretary, I have never changed a breed council ballot that has been voted on by the BC members and reviewed by the CFA Board of Directors.

 

It is my hope that the concerns have been addressed and that everyone has my best answers to their questions.


Rachel Anger, Secretary

The Cat Fanciers' Association, Inc.

 
Ms Anger is also a CFA Judge
What the reader needs to understand is what the Asian issues with CFA are.

The motion before the board was out of order because the application was withdrawn -  the application was returned to the applicant before the meeting.

CFA sets out a process for new Breed application on their page Rules Governing Acceptance and Advancement of New Breeds and Colors.
and expands that process on page  Recognition for Status as a Provisional Breed Requirements
where it says
It is highly desirable that examples of the breed or new color be presented to the CFA Executive Board at one of the regular meetings. It is essential that a breeder, thoroughly knowledgeable in the history of the new breed or color and absolutely familiar with every aspect of the breed or color present the cats and information to the Board.
The process then in simple terms,  as we understand it, is that you collect your information and forward it to the Executive Board, then at the appointed time you go before that board and present your case. The Board also takes information from those opposed to the application as is outlined above and makes a (fair, just, and equitable) decision.
The fundamental point is that the board made a decision on no (withdrawn) information and no presentation.  In other words the case was tried in absentia with only one view at the table. It sets a precedent of pre judgment, and an process, if allowed to stand,  to for stall any new breed application by an opposing party.
We can not think that this would be CFA's true intention.


The motion contained serious misinformation. and inappropriate language.

"The Asian standard is basically word for word identical to the European Burmese standard. The Asian breed mimics the European Burmese breed in genotype and phenotype."
That is to say that an Asian can not be easily differentiated from a European Burmese.  This is what breed council says and this is not the case.
 . see standard proposed......and
see also 10 years of "Asian Breeding".
WIAB "term of art"  refers to  this CFA Page "Definition of Breed" wherein it says
The establishment of classes in any breed which:
(a) in the case of a hybrid or currently outcrossing breed, mimic* the parent breed(s); or,
(b) in the case of a new breed, mimic*, an existing breed, will not be permitted. AOV classes are not affected by this stipulation.

Definition of mimic:

A class of cats would be said to mimic either (a) the parent breed, or (b) an already existing breed, when such a class of cats so closely resemble (a) the parent breed, or (b) already existing breed, that the defining features of the two groups are considered to be basically the same and the differences between the two groups cannot be said to be definite.


It is absolutely clear to all cat breeders and the public that there are great differences between the Asian cats illustrated and a European Burmese.
A a European Burmese is a man made breed originating from a Burmese and a Red Siamese in order to hold the red gene. The European Burmese is differentiated by that one red gene.
An Asian is man made breed originating from a European Burmese  and  Chinchilla Persian in order to hold the Agouti, Full expression, Long hair, Silver, Spotted, Wide band and Superwide band genes. There are many genes that differentiate the Asian from the European Burmese.
The Burmese comes from Siamese , the Chinchilla has no alliance with the Burmese.
The European Burmese shows  the colours/patterns of the Burmese.
The Asian does not show the colours/patterns of the European Burmese.
 

If CFA grants separation of the European Burmese from the Burmese  under "Definition of breed"as they did,  then that sets a standard. We believe CFA must grant separation of the Asian from the E Burmese based on the same standard. That is a logic statement. 

However we do not have the numbers and withdrew  ...




In early 2010 another group has come forward to attempt recognition of the "Burmilla" in CFA.
Kim Ghobrial <cats@kimghob.com> initiated the action along with,
Naomi Johnson <vervain.cats@gmail.com>  in England  remember her??  and,
Michele Ristuccia <miamber@internode.on.net>  in Autralia a judge.

Keith Kimberlin <kkimberlin2921@comcast.net> agreed to "front" the application to CFA. All the CCA breeders agreed to help Kim along,  and they were joined by Lesley Morgan Blythe <comyn@trump.net.au>, a Australian Judge / breeder
It is my understanding at this time that all catteries are CFA registered.

Jan 7
Hi Everyone,
I need to know all the people who said that they would help in getting the Burmillas into CFA.  Originally I thought we would be doing all the Asians, but have decided only to do the Burmillas, as that seems to be the easiest to get into CFA.
Please let me know.  We need 10 Breeders or 10 Catterys.
Kim
-------------
Pat Swihart wrote:
I will help
Ann Kidd and Ivan Battye wrote:
We would play a role
--------------
Kim
Okay, now I have the FIFe Colour Descriptions, which I have to type out and get into Word.doc format.  I have both the Silvers in Shell and Shaded and Goldens.
I hope this works for the Burmillas,
---------------------

Good Day Everyone,
I called  CFA today to get the most accurate information I could about preceding on recognizing the Burmilla in CFA.
Here is what I found out. I will address one issue at a time. I spoke to Marilee Davis who is in charge of registration.
1. I explained that I was trying to get a breed recognized in CFA that was already register in GCCF, FIFE and associations in Australia.
There were the necessary number of 50 registered cats in those association and how would I approach that in the US.
-
From the conversation, since the Burmilla could not be registered in CFA yet, anyone who is interested in starting a new breed would need to provide 50 registration and pedigrees of the breed to be recognized.
THESE DO NOT NEED TO BE CFA. Having individual  registrations, litter registrations, catteries and pedigree from other associations around the world would be provided to CFA and then presented to the board.
2. Once all 50 registrations with pedigrees and 10 catteries are assembled, the breeders would decide on their written standard as to what was going to be accepted and then applications would be completed and sent to CFA where Allene Tartaglia would present this information to the board.

Since I live just 2 hours from the CFA Central office, I think it would make sense for me to assemble the 50 registrations and pedigrees to take as a  preliminary to Allene and then  sit down and discuss the next step.

I have presented this to just the people that Kim put on this list so that your comments could be made before we inquired about assembling this information.

If we all agree that we undertake this approach I will be happy to give my home address information where the registrations and pedigrees can be sent.

3. As far as what is put in the standard (type, color, pattern, etc), Marilee said it is totally up to the breeders who are presenting this to the board.
Please be aware that any standard that is given to the board for review to be accepted for registration is a preliminary standard. The fine tuning begins when
50 cats are registered in CFA and they are in Miscellaneous class and presented to the judges.

Also, while I am at it, as far as the Austiff, I spoke to Elaine. What we came up with was that we both do not see them being recognized in CFA before the Burmilla because until the Burmilla is recognized they would not be able to put in their standard that the Austiff is a cross between a Burmilla and Chinchilla  Persian. (I hope that answers your concerns Michele.)
Keith Kimblerin
                 
-------------------
Jan 13, 2010, Lesley Morgan Blythe wrote:
This is sounding solid.
1) You've got me about CATS - at the 2006 WCC Kitty A spoke about it, but the fine print evades me.  Please elucidate if it is likely to impinge in any constructive (or destructive) manner.  (Or is it about $$$$?) To get details of 50 BML registered in other WCC bodies (let alone the other outfits) would be a doddle!  Heavens, I'm sure FIFe Czechia could provide twice that and many more!  But would you want them officially from registries involved?  I may be able to help there, in ACF - surely that's part of Int Liaison?
2 and 3)  This is likely to be a major problem (with due respect, blind leading blind, by and large)  - PLEASE could you convince the other 9 breeders to go for the FIFe standard?  Well - not to mess about and CFA-ise it?  We need consistency in this breed, not further variations.
It's been said by others - if CFA judges (some with no experience of the breed and the others with comparatively little) are to be arbiters of (fine tuning) standard, Houston, we may have a problem.  Horse designed by committee yet again comes to mind.
Love the logic on Oztiffs - of course!  Perfect sense.
Lesley Morgan Blythe
-----------------
Just a question from a rank outsider, but one who years ago has caused recognition to happen in a couple of breeds. I do so hope that none of the peds submitted will reflect anything other than the breeding you're going to be recommending? Such as - no abys, no EXO with pointed (or other 'interesting' things)  behind,
Lesley Morgan Blythe
-----------------
But there are some GCCF Pedigrees which don't have any Abys or Zots behind them, like Olive and Ian's lines don't have anything,
Kim
------------------
Burmese ~ Asian ~ Ocicat
Naomi Johnson
------------------
All our GCCF pedigrees are the original GCCF standards where the foundation breeding was Chinchilla Persian to European Burmese and the only outcross allowed was back to European Burmese.  This was prior to the introduction and opening of the gene pool to other breeds, which we did not agree with.
Ann & Ivan
------
And stick to it!
Lesley Morgan Blythe
--------------
Other breeds were never actually used, apart from the Mandalays imported to introduce cinnamon -  and those lines are very few and far between,  there is really only a couple of breeders working with them now. I think it's quite possible that the registration policy will be amended again soon.
Naomi    Jan 14
-------
Michele Ristuccia wrote:
Oh this is a very difficult one! Just because there is Persian to Burmilla in the back of the pedigree, it doesn't mean it is an Austiff, or a Burmilla either. The cat must fit the standard, and they are two completely different breeds with the lines blurred due to poor examples of both breeds tending towards one extreme or the other. I have cats where there is that double up on the back of the pedigree, yet my cats are registered as BML, as CCCA doesn't recognise Australian Tiffanie, and so are some of the ones in NSW, yet some of those cats look totally different to mine. I am curious to know how the generational status of the cats will be calculated. Will CFA be assigning generations? What is that LH registered as in NZ and in the US? What are the offspring registered as at the moment?
I have that same breeding line from Copycat in NZ, and mine are Burmilla, some of my most useful cats with good coats and type have come from that line (with a little work) I'd be reluctant to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because of the NZ cat, its an extra breeding line at the end of the day. Despite some temperament issues we have had some excellent clear, pale and short coats from that line. Anyway, if the offspring are not up to scratch, then it will show on the bench.
Michel-
------------
Since I am assembling the pedigree for the presentation to CFA, I will do my best to find 50 pedigrees and registrations that will be positive examples of the breed.
In speaking directly with the central office of CFA, they are not going to Police the pedigree situation. That will have to be done by the breeders and in turn by the breed council members once that can be established.
At the present time, all the information that is assembled is for the purpose to register Burmilla in CFA. That is step one.
Once that is accomplished, there will be 5 years of discussion and education. I am sure a big part of the final presentation to get the breed accepted for Championship will depend upon the breeders and the speciman that are presented.
I wouldn't worry about getting so involved with the pitfalls and obstacles of the final breed. CFA is a registering body for pedigree cats and that is the role they are going to take at this point. The bigger obstacles will take place when the breeders, the breed council of the allowable outcrosses and the board of directors finally lock horns.
Like I said to Kim, I hope to use my organizational skills to get the information that is required by CFA so that we can register the cats.
As I can tell you first hand from registering Norwegian Forest Cats that I imported overseas, what is actually in the pedigree is unimportant in CFA's eyes. It is only important to the breeders.
CFA's job will be to register cats that have a certified pedigree of 5 generations from the major registering bodies around the world who have accepted and recognized the breed.
Keith
--------------
an 14, 2010, at 11:14 PM, Kim Ghobrial wrote:
This is what I had as Acceptable Outcrosses on my website, does this sound okay?

Rules for Registration and Acceptable Outcrosses for Burmilla Shorthair and Burmilla Longhair:

From May 1, 2000 all Burmillas being Registered, with Registration slips from outside North America as Burmillas, Burmilla LH, or Tiffanies, must have no American Burmese in the background for 5 Generations. In the North American Registries all cats which are Registered as Burmillas, Burmilla LH, or Tiffanies, must have no American Burmese in the background for 8 Generations.

In the 1st Generation:

From May 1, 2000, all 1st Generation breedings must be of Chinchilla x European Burmese or any 1st Generation breedings that took place before May 1, 2000 that was any other type of 1st Generation breedings will be accepted. All Outcrosses must be of Sound Health and Temperament.

In the continuation of Generations:

Each Generation after the 1st Generation breeding mated to a Burmilla or Asian or European Burmese of the CFA type/Standard (with no North American Burmese in the Pedigree), to be Registered as either Burmilla in Shell or Shaded in both Shorthair or Longhair or as AOV which is Self, Smoke, Tabby SH or LH.
Kim
--------
Keith Kimberlin wrote:
Why does this have to be so wordy. It is really confusing.
Here is my proposal. which of course is open for discussion
Allowable outcrosses:
Burmilla SH: Burmilla LH, and  European Burmese
Burmilla LH: Burmilla SH and  European Burmese
Registration:
Registrations prior to May 1, 2000 may have Burmilla, European Burmese, Asian (GCCF), Chinchilla Persian, Austiff and American Burmese as allowable outcrosses to  establish the  breed.
From May 1, 2000 all Burmilla LH/SH registered must have no American Burmese, Asian,  Chinchilla Persian or Austiff in the background for 5 generations.
---------------
Hi Keith,
The reason why it is so wordy, is because if you don't add all of the Patterns, you will cut yourself off from most of the World's Genetic material.  And the other reason, is that is what some of the Organizations have had (tho, I have changed the wording a bit to make it CFA'ese).
The first part, is to make sure that there aren't any American Burmese behind the cats, from other Countries, 5 Gen. and from the US, 8 Gen.
Part 2, you need to make sure, that if anyone wants to do the 1 Gen. Breedings, that they just don't mix anything else to get the Burmilla Pattern eventually.  In the First Gen. Breeding between Chinchilla x EB you will be getting Selfs and Ticked Tabbys, then you take a lighter coloured kitten, if possible a Silver kitten and then breed it back to a Burmilla, so you can get more of the Burmilla pattern, tho, it might take a little bit longer to get Burmillas, depending on how you have bred the cats.
And since Part 2, you can get almost anything, especially if you go back to EB's, you will be getting any other Pattern except Burmillas, those will go into AOV.
So, we need to keep it the way I put it.  It is more for the Clarification for future Breeders who want to start from Scratch.
Kim
----------- ed And here it begins to go off the rails ed
I think there is a lot of confusion with recognizing a new breed.
CFA, is a registering body. That is all they are. They are not going to police the breed and it allowable outcrosses in pedigrees from other associations.
We have thus far determined that a Burmilla has a Chinchilla Persian only in the first generation, F1 Foundation.
We have also determined that Burmilla has European Burmese in any generation.
Third we have determined that SOME ASSOCATIONS have other breeds, like GCCF with the Asian.
Now let get to the point of registering a CFA Burmilla.
Burmillas will be bred as Burmilla to Burmilla or Burmilla to European Burmese.
BURMILLA will not be bred to Asians in CFA because CFA does not recognize that breed.
If they do not recognize the breed, you will not get a registration number and then you will not be able to register the parents or the offspring.
What CFA is concerned about is what CFA registerable breeds are allowed as outcrosses.
If you bring in an Asian, you are not going to be permitted to register that in CFA.
Only Burmilla will be registered.
Unless you propose to have CFA accept the Asian at the same time, ( which is total insanity), you will not be able to import an Asian and get a registration number in CFA to use in the breeding of Burmilla.
I think your knowledge of the other breeds and how they are registered overseas is giving you a false impresssion  of what CFA will allow.
At the present time, I don't know of any other way to explain this.
Keith
--------

The Burmilla started out in GCCF - the first ever litter was registered with GCCF  -  it was only a few years later that the early breeders decided that they'd like to get all the Asian varieties recognised,  because it would mean a wider gene pool.  When the other varieties appeared,   the name Burmilla was reserved for the Shaded cats - both silver and non-silver.   The Burmilla in GCCF has never been a breed in its own right,  it is merely the Shaded variety of the Asian breed.  In GCCF we do not now do foundation matings - the use of Chinchilla is only permitted as an outcross to an Asian (not a Burmese) -  and after such an outcross, a further 3 gens have to be bred back to either Asian or Burmese before the offspring are eligible for showing.  I only know of one breeder who has done this and she still hasn't got showable generations.
In FIFe and the Australian associations,  the Burmilla IS a breed in its own right and is only fully recognised in silver varieties (Tipped/Shell/Chinchilla, and Shaded)
CFA are only ever going to recognise the Burmilla as a breed in its own right - we already know they won't recognise the other Asian varieties (of course I think that's very unfortunate,  but I accept it)
Yes, you will get the other varieties,  at least to begin with, when you breed Burmillas together )starting from foundation stock).  You would obviously not keep anything except shaded or tipped silvers to breed on with.   If you are able to import Burmillas that are homozygous for both agouti and silver,  then you will have a head start because a cat with that genotype will only ever produce silver shaded/tipped no matter what it's bred to.   But if it's bred to an EB then the offspring will not be homzygous and they could then produce other varieties in the next generation.  Of course,  ideally you want to only use homozygous cats,  but you do need to keep the gene pool open so it's going to be one step forward and two steps back some of the time.
Naomi
--------
You are 100% right in your assessment, with one slight exception.
I do believe that CFA will recognize the Asian as a breed,BUT not before FIFE recognizes the Asian as a separate breed and the Burmilla is fully accepted for Championship in CFA.
Kim.... Here are the points that many of us have  made to you earlier about writing the CFA standard for the Burmilla. Let's not make the CFA Burmilla a hodgepodge of other standard.
Others breed have tried that and failed.
1. STICK TO THE FIFE STANDARD
2. USE THE COLOR DESCRIPTIONS THAT ARE IN THE FIFE STANDARD FOR THE BURMILLA WITHOUT CHANGES..
3. CFA will only recognize the Burmilla as a breed in its own right, we already know they will not recognize the other Asian Varieties.
You need to make this standard SUCCINCT and to the point.
I am trying to use my Technical writing skills to keep the standard to a writing format that reflects a breeding practice and a visual of the Phenotypical Burmilla  and not a Historical lessons on how the breed originated.
Keith
----------------
Believe me, if you want to breed good Burmillas, in Tipped and Shaded, you are better off not using those other patterns/colours
Michele
-----------
Can I just come in on this?  The Asian group came from the BML which was the original, because disobligingly, kittens which were not tipped or shaded silver happened in BML matings.  GCCF decided to create the Asian group, which encompasses these colours and patterns and on occasion, there were outcrosses other than what one might strictly use for producing BML.   Naomi - am I correct on that?
Lesley
-------------
When you exclude registrations of cats bred from Burmilla to Chinchilla, are you talking about registrations of cats bred in countries other than the US? Because if you are, you will exclude most of the cats I could send you, many of my cats have such a mating right on the back of the pedigree, especially as I worked with two breeders deliberately reintroducing LH back into their cats. I started my Burmilla program in 2000. Why not put in, that from 2009, the only allowable matings are EB Burmese x Chinchilla, EB Burmese to Burmilla, and Burmilla x Burmilla. Only kittens of Shaded/ Tipped pattern to be kept for full registration, Smokes are AOV and are useful when desperate. Anything else cannot be used in Burmilla breeding. To keep genetic diversity the cats bred before this time are not excluded.
Michele  Jan 15
-------------
Clear coats can easily be achieved without sticking to Burmilla/Burmilla matings - what you need for clear coats is a homozygous ticked pattern which can be found in any Burmese,  or other Asian varieties for that matter.
Naomi
-----
Homozygous ticked = Aby tabby.  Is that really what you mean?
Lesley
------
Burmese are homozygous ticked........ as are many Asians here :))
Naomi
-------
I just want to say that CFA is not going to Police pedigrees,  they are just going to ask the breeders what they want "NOW".
I think the number of legitimate pedigree will overpower any hanky panky that was done in the past.
My answer to the Norwegian Forest Cat breeders when the Amber color appeared and there was concern that Somali's had been used. My answer was WHO CARES?
I know that many of you are thinking that DNA testing is going to be the end all, but with the exception of genetically determined diseases, I do not see how color evaluation by DNA show any more knowlegdge than the assessment of the pedigree and the parents.
All the information Kim received from her DNA test results could have been assessed from the pedigree.
Kieth-
-------
Hmm -  i don't agree about that -   Kim was absolutely right to DNA test,  from the photos I could be virtually certain of the colours,  but it was good to have it confirmed.  It has also proved that at least 2 generations back there are wrongly registered cats too,  but i doubt the breeders will do anything about it or even believe they could be wrong.... 
I often see wrongly registered Burmillas/ASians on the show bench when judging.
Naomi
-------
Agree about many being incorrectly exhibited.  And yes, Kim's cat isn't as registered and must have misidentified cats in the background.  (And as for the black silver "classic tabby" - I don't think so!)
Just for the record, prior to blue shaded being recognised by CFA, at a (CFA) show in Japan I had a blue shaded silver PER which had made GC (as black, obviously) without being 'pulled up".  The less coat length and paler the pattern, the harder it becomes.......and then, for BML, throw in the difference between full expression and cbcb expression........
LMB
But there are hugely varying 'degrees' of ticked pattern in BUR - some is visible and you can feel it, while others - nothing.    If BUR are
truly homozygous ticked tabby, why do they usually DNA test as a/a?  I thought it was rather analogous to my EXO, which as you can see in the kittens are (underlying it all) classics, but are certainly a/a.
Lesley
--------
Yes and why do we get such strong Classic or Mackerel) tabby when a Burmese is mated to a non homozygous silver? If they were so ticked, then surely the ticking would help clear a lot of the tabby coming from the silver.
Michele
----------------- ed  wow ed
I hope everyone's keeping a sharp eye on their odd lilacs and brownish blues...........Dm is alive and well in BM!  (Sorry for preaching at you, choristers Naomi, Michele, Kim, Louise)  Leslie Lyons is working on DM DNA as we speak.
L
-------------
Sorry everyone, this might be new discussion, but it was a carry over from way earlier.  For those who are just getting this, please read below this post.
Okay, so is the consensus, if there is Chinchilla still showing that it must take 5 Generations to get it off?  Then if that is so, shouldn't we still Register them into CFA anyway, instead of doing it in another Organization?
I'm going to use your Allowable Outcrosses, Michele, as it makes sense.
Kim
------

1. We do not have the abiltity to register CFA yet.
2. The 50 pedigrees to obtain registration rights is all that is the concern at the moment.
3. As long as a cat is  registered as a Burmilla is one of the MAJOR registries around the world, and there is a certified pedigree,qw they will count toward obtaining registration only.
CFA will not police  the pedigree, only the breeders who have signed their names to the application.
Here is the most important point you need to remember.
If two Burmillas are imported from other registries as Burmilla and you breed the two together to get a litter of 8 kittens, you will be able to fill out a CFA registration form (minus the registration number)
and register all 8 kittens individually on the form. This will count as 8 additional Burmillas to the 50 required. Why would we want to both giving CFA information that is not pertinent.
The registering procedure for register a cat in CFA will require a 5 generation pedigree just like it does in any other breed.
Stay focused, you are jumping the gun. I asked that the discussion involving what was acceptable to be registered as well as AOV be postponed. (ed)
I want time to exhibit the cats and gets some feedback from the Cat Fancy, which will include Judges , fellow exhibitors,  and breeders from around the world.
With that said  FIFE color and patterns already acceptable is the present goal.
FYI, if we include Chinchilla Persian in the 5 generation, we wukk  still want to include them as an allowable outcross (because if they are present in the first 5 generations, they will have to be added) then the preliminary standard will have to be approved by the CFA European Burmese Breed Council and the CFA Persian Breed Council. Are you following these critical points.
DO WE REA LLY WANT THIS?
You have to remember, the more information you supply to the Board in reference to other breeds will lessen your chances of acceptance.
Keith
--------------------
Almost all the issues you are discussing have been worked over, at great length, in CCA.
The issues are spelled out on our web site and can be accessed from our index page as the ABCS page and includes a collection of genetics, and information related to the standards including the original GCCF standard with comments and the current CCA standard with comments, as to future directions. (If you care to review)
The Burmilla is a cat from a Chinchilla (Persian) and a European Burmese. That is the gene pool that we are discussing and, as such, is clear and of long pedigree on both sides. The exclusivity of this gene pool is clearly identified in the cat press and the public mind.
The English and a number of other jurisdictions chose to separate out the various colors and patterns (SOMEWHAT) into separate breeds ie. Asian and Tiffanie.
CCA did not.  All cats descendant from that breeding combination, in CCA are Burmillas.  They are then described in their registration by color, hair length and pattern ie.  self, smoke, shaded, tipped ticked and longhair.
We strongly recommend to you that CFA follow this reasoning. It would solve many or your issues now and for the future.
It is clear, simple, and is easy for the public to understand. Marketing is easier. The cat is a "Burmese in a fancy coat"; and whether we like to admit it or not  the marketing of our cats is one of the most important aspect of our operations because it finances the ongoing breeding program (to some extent).
and the Burmese temperament sells.
As such then, the "Asian" outcrossing issue does not fundamentally exist.
All patterns and colors would be "register-able" and thus can be sold as registered cats. This is an important financial consideration.
If you choose to only show the silver and tipped cats that is fine - -  re comments AOV - -  we agree with that and are moving in that direction at Horizons - as the large number of possibilities have caused considerable confusion among the judges, and the shaded tipped cat is the most spectacular.     (We would be happy if you considered tipped golden as well but - - whatever.)
As Naomi warns you, to eliminate the the others from the breed pool is to place yourselves in a very small breed (pool) box in very short order. One of the most important things in a new breed is to avoid inbreeding in the early going.
Let me give you an example:
A "smoke" bred to a "golden tick" will give  you a silver shaded or tipped cat - from nothing comes something!
(Please note:  the majority of Burmese are Golden -- Silver is difficult to hold and tipping is a recessive - this is why the 3rd generation goes to another Burmilla (CCA term) before the 4th back to the Burmese and there are a number of instances where third gen. status must be held before going back to the Burmese.)
Homozygous tipped silver is very, very hard to get, difficult to identify, and for the proof of that:-  check out our cat Findus,  his pedigree and breedings. 
With regard to the eye color  and coat refinements comments, we suggest that these are issues for 10 years from now, as such refinements are most often recessive and  secondary to the health (read breadth) of the gene pool. (This is why all Associations allow so few points for eye color.)
With regard to the basic colors, these become difficult to impossible to identify in the shaded and tipped cats.
As such we suggest you do not use the term Apricot,  stay with Red and Cream, and identify cats as either Black or Brown --- Brown being all varieties of Brown  ie. Brown, Full expression Brown, Chocolate, Full expression Chocolate. Likewise, the dilutes would be grouped under Blue to include Blue , Full expression Blue (Indigo), Lilac,  and Full expression Lilac (Frost).
We admit this may be a bit to radical for some, and should not preclude the breeder from knowing all of the possible colors and patterns available.
Again I say "Caramel" is problematic and  "silver caramel" is beyond my understanding, since it is a golden-based color.
Given the complexity of the genetics and the large variety of naming conventions  within the various jurisdictions I would suggest that any documentation forwarded to CFA with regard to descriptions of the cat  include  genetic string information as a means of translation.  We have done that in our proposed drafted for CCA on the above noted web page where you will note CCA has used the standard North American terms for colors as used in the Burmese.
In summary I suggest any standard be as broad as possible with the minimum of restrictions. The genetic understandings are considerable and complex, and as such will require a lot of understanding and co-operation between breeders.  Our suggestion for the cats on exhibition is that the   show manager guarantee show judges will handle the cats (condition of engagement). 
Ivan
----------------

I do agree about caramel having nothing to do with golden - it seems to be more or less established that Dm came from silver (Chinchilla) originally.    And Burmese can't be golden as they are non agouti!   (golden is always agouti)
As for Dm in burmese lines,  i've certainly seen a few dubious dilute Burmese on the show bench here,  but have not had a chance to investigate their ancestry (must try to do that)  although it could well be that Si-Mon's Frosty Knight (behind 70s chocolate imports to UK) was caramel, given that he underwent a number of colour changes ;)))
Oh and I also agree that it would not make any sense for the CFA Burmilla breeders to use CCA's definition of the breed,  as it is unique to that registry only.
Naomi     jan 16
---------------ed wow again

Here are the pitfalls and you can determine in all probality will CFA accept the Burmilla or will this just become a lesson in humility.
1. I will say it again- CFA will not Police a pedigree. If a pedigree come to them as a Burmilla from a major registry with a 5 generation certified pedigree (regardless of what color or pattern terminology you use) it will be registered.
Rarely if ever will a certified pedigree be denied if all the paperwork is in order and the proper fees are paid.
**What will happen when you start your own foundation matings, or go back to Burmese, will these offspring be denied a registration with CFA? In our organisation ,the generations below 4th gen are issued with a Supplementary Registration number. I am also allowed to show them in equal competition with other full register and established breeds. I wanted this so judges could handle and the public could actually see Burmillas, so I wouldn't have to hide them away for 10 years. I realise this probably won't happen in CFA, but you definitely need to be able to create a gene pool, the  idea of taking the registrations of early gen matings outside of CFA is ridiculous in my opinion.
 
2. The Burmilla we be introduce with the FIFE colors, any other color or pattern that is not included in this group will fall under the color class "Other Burmilla Colors".
This is quite different from "AOV". This is why I have asked Kim to put the AOV issue on hold.
Why is there a class call "Other Burmilla Colors" you ask. The reason is because the number of cats in these colors is such a small percentage that many of the colors may not have an example to describe that color or pattern.
It also allow colors to be added, introduced, etc without writing an entire color and pattern description.
Why is this important? First- CFA is going to want to see numbers. They publish how many colors have been registered yearly and since their  inception.
When the Norwegian Forest Cat was registered in CFA, there were 2  color class. One for all brown tabbies ( included all 4 tabby patterns with or without white plus patched tabbies) and one for All Other Norwegian Forest Cat Colors.
That is all you need to do for the Burmilla, one for all the FIFE registered colors and One for all other Burmilla colors.
To get back to the issue of Chinchilla Persian not being an allowable outcross for Burmilla in CFA.
I will tell you first hand. I have bred Silver Persians. It is the first pedigree breed I started with. I cannot see any positive reason why a CFA bred Silver persian would add anything to the Burmilla gene pool.
***Why not? You will note on some of my pedigrees the prefixes San Luis and Ver Halen, both Chins were imported to Australia from the US some 12 years ago. There will be some old style Chins being bred somewhere in the US, in fact one of the breeders of "pure old style" chins was still breeding last year.
My first silver persian Female had 3 living kittens total out of 3 mating. I saw cleft palates, mummified kittens, stillborn kitten, kitten born with their eyes open, and intestines outside the body.
With 3 living kitten and 9 dead, I cannot see any advantage of adding such a weak genepool.
****Talking to Silver Persian breeders in the US some years ago, yes they have some problems, due to a very inbred gene pool, but remember you are creating a hybrid breed, one which will have benefits from both breeds and demonstrate hybrid vigor. Problems such as the above can be attributed as much to Toxo or Strep G as bad genetics. It seems a shame to taint the whole breed with your example.
Having not bred a Silver Persian since 1990, I can tell you that the examples I see in the showhall could not bring anything positive to a Burmilla. The ones with clear coat and green eyes lack substance and are very fragile in appearance.
****They may look fragile in appearance in comparison to a solid, but you don't want the mass and boning of a solid persian anyway, there are only three things you do want, the green eyes, the beautiful smooth doming and  and the high grade silver tipped coat. The Burmese should donate everything else
The silver that have substance were bred to solid Persians and have darker coats and poor eye color.
If we are talking about a present day Silver Persian, it is quite different from the Chinchlla persian that was used in England when the breed was first conceived.
Two major health issues you are going to have to DNA test for are PKD and Cardiomyopathy.
No thanks, I see no advantage here. You would be better taking a cat off the street for genetic diversity than bringing back a breed that is not necessary.
***At least you will know the problems to test for. Genetic diversity is not all its cracked up to be, for every set of new genes you introduce in the name of diversity, you are potentially introducing a new set of genes that are a problem. Every established breed with some life experience has "known" problems you can test for. A domestic will not.
If you need more information about CFA and the way they handle their breeds, my I suggest that you get a copy of the CFA Show Standards and the CFA Show Rules. They are published annually. The most recent one is the
May 1,2009 - April 30, 2010.
I hope I have been able to clarify why we don't want to muddy the water on the CFA standard.
Keith  with comments by michele
---------- this man does not know the history of the E Burmese
Catsland wrote:
we respond at this time because we finally SEE some  sense put into this discussion. All your reasonning about colour  and patterns are full of merit. No question about that. However,  we also strongly believe that most of that discussion belongs in a  few years time.
At this moment, we are dealing with a new breeed that we want to  get accepted at the CFA. Fact of life: CFA may hold shows all over  the world but this registry is North American and, at this moment  in time, the gene pool of Burmilla cats in North America is  EXTREMELY poor. We have to work on enlarging that gene pool first  and foremost. THat means that, willing or not, it will be  important for breeders to participate in that endeavour. *_We need  new bloodlines_*.
We absolutely stand against the idea of NOT being able to  register kittens that don't have 5 generation pedigree under their  belt. As Annn an Ivan mentionned, it is an important point for  breeders even if only on a financial basis. Who would even think  of chipping in to make new bloodlines knowing that it will take 5  generations before the kittens can be registered???? The idea of  registering those kittens elsewhere before the line has five  generations is preposterous and downright insulting to those who  are willing to work on new bloodlines. Are those breeders to sell  those unregistered cats as household pets even if they are on due  course toward a "full" burmillas? We believe that a clear distinction should be made as to what will be allowed to be SHOWN  as apposed to what will be allowed to be REGISTERED.
 I would like to address a point that is very close to our  hearts. Whatever is decided as to which colour patterns will  eventually be accepted as Burmillas ( though we personally still  believe that the burmilla should be shaded, any shaded colour long  as it IS shaded), me and my associate disagree with your project  of not being able to register burmilla kittens until 5 generations  has passed.
We were dragged into the burmilla breeding knowing all too well  that the gene pool of that breed is very small in North America.  We are breeders who have decided to take the plunge and try to  bring in new bloodline FROM SCRATCH ( meaning a chinchillaXeuro  burmese cross). Needless to say that it is lots of work and it  takes a LOT of patience to move on further with the lines. I would  fully understand that Burmillas that don’t have at least 5  generations under their belt should not be allowed TO BE SHOWN.  However, I do beliebe that you are doing a big mistake in not  allowing those kittens to be registered with CFA right from the  start. That way of doing things will simply discourage breeders to  undertake a new bloodlines that are needed to make this breed  progress. Why not simply follow the CCA registration procedure and apply an “F1” ( or any other genreration suffix) after the  registration number until the sixth gneration has been attained? I  really don’t see the point of registering those kittens in other organisations until they are condidered “full burmillas” and then  getting CFA papers for them.
You have to remember that before your start to paint your house,  you have to have a strong foundation. No matter which pattern will  eventualy be accepted for the breed, it is a fact that no one can  escape that new bloodlines will have to infused into the breed.
I will also adress a minor point that has been brought up in this discussion regarding the thick undercoat of  burmillas from early generations. Having bred from scratch, I can tell you that this  thicker undercoat is gone by the time you get to the second  generation. Even two F1 burmillas bred together will produce  kittens that don’t have that thick  undercoat. It is true for both  long hair and shorthair. The F2 also are closer to the burmese  body type and they have lost most of the “roundness” of the  Persians. Even the F2s that we got show a huge body type  difference from the F1s. To the point where we believe that waiting 6 generations to call them “full Burmillas” seems like  pushing the enveloppe.
 From what we have seen with our breeding programm, it is better  to breed an F1 burmilla with another F1 ( or a “full” burmilla)  than with a european burmese. That way, we have maintained the  green eyes ( emerald green...not chartreuse or whatever diluted  green) and the stunning shaded. Bring back the European Burmese  early in the breeding and your loose the deep green eyes and, even  worse, you loose quality the shaded. For the first generation, a  chinchillaX brown European burmese have produced the best  black  shaded.
 From what we have understood of this discussion, the plan is to  only accept Burmillas that are shaded and move away from the  “’burmese in a fancy coat” depiction. It is a fact that selling  the Burmillas breed with this description is bound to produce a  major lobbying against the acceptation of that breed by the  Burmese breeders. I don’t blame them either as I can see their  point of view.
We would add that it would be best if everyone willing to be part  of this group pushing the Burmillas breed at the CFA should also  pay the extra fee to have a vote within the European burmese  breed. It may not defeat the blocus against us but we may dilute  the lobbying against the Burmillas breed.
 Finally, I cannot respond to this discussion without adressing  M. Keith Kimberlin last response regarding the silver Persian. The  silver Persian always had a smaller stature than the solid  persian. However, to say that this breed is weak is so wrong. We  never had any weak or difformed kittens issued from a  chinchilaXEuro burm cross. On the contrary. Those kittens are  bigger than those of the following generations and they all had a  strong constitution.
The problem M. Kimberlin has met may not be due to the chinchilla persian as much as the individuals that were chosen in the  breeding programm. A weak cat is a weak cat whatever breed it may  come from. Our chinchilla Persians have all been DNA tested for  PKD and that should be done with any Persian in ANY breeding  programm including the burmilla. Don’t forget that the Euro  burmese isn’t exactly a cat without any frailties either.
We simply don’t understand such hatred for the chinchilla within  the burmilla programm. The chinchilla doens’t bring anything to  the breed? How about those green eyes and the shaded colour? If we  followed that train of thought, all burmillas should be accepted  EXCEPT the shaded ones.
Johanne Maheux
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We have brought burmilla cats to every CFA shows we have done. We always made a point of showing the burmillas along with the European burmeses. We always showed them in the HHP class simply because we wanted to avoid the risk of any juges refusing to handle the cat. That class is a great soap box also because the juges always invite people to talk about their cats.
Wayne Travathan was one of the judges that have seen our cats. He came to us later in the day. He made it clear that he was agaisnt the Burmillas. We were told in not so many words that it was not likely that the breed would ever be accepted at the CFA. Now, you can let that discourage you or you can find encouragements in what OTHER juges had to say.
We always showed F1 burmillas because it was what we had at the time. We were pleased to see that most of the juges who have seen them recognized them for what they were even before they were told. As much as people like Wayne Travathan don't like the Burmilla, we can tell you that there are LOTS of juges out there who were not shy to offer their encouragement. Many of them had judged in Australia and Europe and they were extremely pleased to see that some poeple were interested to push this breed at the CFA.
As far as Wayne Travathan is concerned, from what we could understand from what he had to say, what he fears about the Burmilla is having a cat accepted that looks to close to the burmese. I remember that the cat he had seen was a silver shaded. He went as far as admitting that was a good looking cat. I don't think he would have said that  if we had brought a lilac or a brown one ( or any solid colours for that matter). We didn't take the bait and responded harshly to his comments. By the end of the conversation, he was still against the burmilla but his tone had mellowed.
We may be wrong about this but it is our belief that his point our view is very close to the point of view of everyone who stands against the burmilla. If we agree that it will take five to six years for the breed to have a chance of being accepted, it may be to our mutual advantage to develop a strategy that will enable us to find allies within the European burmese council. I'm afraid that strategy will have to include a restriction of patterns and colours that are deemed acceptable.
Johanne  jan 1
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I think you have to take note of the CFA European Burmese standard and see that it's success lies behind the fact that is concise and to the point.
There is no extra baggage in that standard. That is what the Burmilla community need to understand about CFA and the process.
I think I can deal with Wayne when the time is necessary. I have known of him and him of me for over 20 years in the cat fancy and I am sure I can be as forthcoming as him.
But before I take on that task, I want the pedigrees.... numbers, numbers, numbers. We will succeed.
Keith
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Michele,
Do you have a CFA cattery name and number?
If not, should we get you one.
Keith
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No, I don't. Ive been meaning to get one for a while. One of your judges while out here a year or so ago told me it would be the first step for me to get Burmillas into CFA, she also suggested having my cattery listed on the CFA site!!! Her name will come to me, she was doing a presentation of Savannahs at a meeting after one of the National Shows.
Michele
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Kim So without taking offense, why do you want to pursue the colors and patterns that are not included in the FIFE standard?
I am referring to Caramel, Apricot and the Asian patterns.
I am trying to determine your reasoning and how you think it will be beneficial to getting Burmillas recognized in CFA.
Keith
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the Burmilla Coat Colours, it was ACF's Book of Standards.
Group I: NON-ORANGE
Black/Blue/Chocolate/Lilac/Cinnamon/Fawn Silver Shaded/Shell
Seal/Blue/Chocolate/Lilac/Cinnamon/Fawn Silver Shaded/Shell Burmese Pointed
Group II:  ORANGE
Red/Cream/Tortie Silver Shaded/Shell
Red/Cream/Tortie Silver Shaded/Shell Burmese Pointed
The only way you can get Cinnamon or Fawn is if you bred in the Aby or Somali into the Gene poole.  I don't think we want this to be included into the Standard.  I would rather use ACF's Colours, which does include the Caramel and Apricot.  I do plan on working with these colours if I can produce them.
I don't want the Asian Patterns in right now, but we will get them, and they should be Registered at least, even if they go as pets.
Kim jan 17
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 certainly think you are producing caramel (and apricot) having looked at Ivan's site.  Notwithstanding, and it goes against every fibre of my being  (am I really saying this????) for the sake of seamless acceptance in the first instance,  to take a deep breath and register as the nearest colour - i.e: in the case of  Bes Sekhmet, Romulus and Lavinia.  ('Lilac' tipped or shaded)  Maybe diff in real life, but they look lilac based caramel to me.
Lesly Morgan Blythe (LMB)
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actually, I think that Sekhmet was a Blue Based Caramel and Bastet who was lighter was a Lilac Based Caramel.  Romulus was a Chocolate, but I think since his base coat was not pure white, that he was a Non-Silver (more of an Ivory base coat), or some said Golden.
I have added a photo of Sekhmet and Bastet, so you can see the difference between them.
Kim
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Ann an Ivan,
I have taken the time to read through your website and your discussion with Kim Ghobrial and the CFA board.,The Burmilla/Tiffanie Program.
I have been enlightened by the controversy that is surrounded around the Burmilla, Asian and European Burmese.
Although I truly hate to admit this, I would have agreed with Mr. Wayne Trevathan assessment.
As you know, I am a breeder who is just started out with the Burmilla and I do want to see this breed go forward.
I applaud all your hard work and effort that you have done with the Asian and Burmilla and recognize how important and valuable this information
is to the establishment of the breed.
My concerns are that at first glance are that many of the photograph I see of your describe Asian look too similar to the European Burmese as I see them
on the east coast in the United States.
My impression of what a Burmilla should be are based on what I see from the Australian breeders with the connection to the FIFE standard.
While your knowledge of genetics and relentless passion for the breed is evident, I am not sure I see the distinction necessary to carry the Burmilla
forward as a new breed in CFA.
I ask you both to keep an open mind and help us sort through this path together and see if we can come up with some finite solutions to the current problems.
I do not say this lightly, as I do not wish to offend, but I see major problems in moving forward in the US with so many color choices. This is not something that CFA will take lightly and there will be many opponent to this breed standard if it is written to include more than the shaded silver and silver tipped cats.
Reading through and looking at many pictures, can you tell me more about Strathkirk Iolanthe. Your photo is so close to the comment of Ms Ghobrial accidental breeding to and Abyssinian, I am not sure if the photo of Iolanthe refer to that or not.
Keith Kimberlin Jan 17
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think the best thing for those who haven't bred the Burmillas or Chinchilla x EB or own 1 or 2, you might breed 1 litter first before you decide which Patterns to Register.
I've bred the Asians since 1999, I know that when you breed a Chin x EB your first Generation litter will only have Ticked Tabbys, some Silver, some Non-Silver.  Very rare case you might have 1 kitten who is a Burmilla, but very doubtful.
I still say, that I want all the other Patterns to be Registrable, breedable, but not Showable.  And...from the beginnings onward.  I know that CFA isn't able to monitor the breedings we do, but also, you won't be selling or starting up a new Breeder in the Burmillas, if you don't trust them.  It all has to do with trust.
On top of this if you want to have all the people who have cats currently, to help in getting these cats into CFA, you aught to understand where they are coming from, they don't mind that we will only do the Burmillas in Shaded or Tipped/Shell/Chinchilla, as long as they can use the other Patterns when needed, they don't want to produce pets, they would like to keep the diversification of the breed, to keep it healthy.
If you don't want to work with certain Colours, you don't have to, but don't ask all of us to work with the Colours you only would like to have.  If you don't want to Show those Colours, that is fine, you don't have to, but don't make us do that.  Does this make any sense?
Kim
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standard and color description
kim Jan 17
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I dont agree with that.  We breeded a lot of chinchilla to EBurm and most of the time 90% The kitten was shaded silver.  The thing is that they take long time to develop like the silver persian.  The eyes are not passing from blue to green.  They passe from blue to grey, after they are green in the center and yellow around.  It took about 1year and half to have the eyes turn green.  The same for the hair.  In the begginning they look tick tabby but as they developpe, they have more with under coat and less tick until they are totaly shaded.  The only color that stay tick is the golden from those mating you can see one on Ann and Yvan website it's Oprah she's out of our chinchilla persian and a Chocolat Eburm that Ann and Yvan let us lease when we first beginn with the breed
For those who want you can see 2 of our burmilla in our website in the Eburm section.  Those burmilla are first generation.  So it can give an idea of what you'll have with the mating of a chinchilla silver persian and a Eburm. Josee and I would be happy to help other from our experience.
Sorry for my english Josee's not there to help me Loll
----
cfa porposed standard
kim
----------  Michele. sets up yahoo group

We believe it timely to comment on the circumstances of where and how we would participate in this initiative. We would like to share a direct statement with you because not to do so, would in our opinion, be dishonest.
Trust and integrity need to be at the heart of this initiative.
In bringing a new breed forward to any Association, we believe that there must be agreement in principle, as to the common goal toward which members of the group aspire. The events which follow then become an organized and sequential series of actions that allow members to work through each issue in a timely and systematic manner.  For us, this would be:
1.  A list of Breeders/Catteries to move the agenda forward.
2.  A stated commitment  from each Breeder or potential breeder of what he/she is prepared to offer to move the group agenda forward.
(a)  Who will exhibit  --- are all CFA regions covered?
(b) Who will begin to breed ---what identified sources of breeding cats exist --- is importing neccesary?
(c)  Who bears the financial costs of moving to Exhibition and Provisional status (ie. 50 + 150 = 200 or so cats)?
3.  The setting of an agreed standard.
4.  The registration of the required number of cats for initial/exhibition status.
5.  Identification and engagement of additional group supporters to become breeders or agree to exhibit cats
The goal is presumably, the acceptance of the Burmilla into CFA.  Although we believe this is premature and that there are insufficient group members available to exhibit and breed a requisite number of cats, we are prepared to assist within our current breeding protocols.
We agree and will support that:
1.  All colours and patterns of this breed will be registered and can be used in the breeding program as designated in the original CCA and GCCF standards and that these will be classified as AOV.  All will be identified into the standard, at a minimum, into an appendix.
CCA and our website list these colours.
2.  Only the Silver Shaded and Tipped variety of this breed will be shown in both short and semi longhair and in red and non red genetic varieties.
Kim has outlined these colours in her draft standard.
3.  Teminology for the descriptions may vary from CCA and GCCF and may include a group consensus.
(ie. Burmilla may describe all colours or just the silvers or another term(s) can be used to describe the AOV colours)
4.  Colours may be introduced into the standard by group consensus.
(ie. Apricot and Caramel already exist but Cinnamon, Fawn and Frost do not)
5.  No colours may be eliminated from the standard with the possible exception of "indigo", which is not described by the original standards.
We do not agree and will not support that:
1. Any cats of this breed listed in the  CCA standards and which occur within the breeding program, will be excluded from registration or breeding.
These cats will occur in a breeding program and are often required to increase the gene pool options.  They must also be sold as purebred cats.
As  members of the current and only North American Burmilla breeding program, we would like to invite any members of this group to work with us in    furthering this breed.  We would propose that there is merit in registering with CCA and working with the CCA standard.  There are several catteries currently doing this. We believe that the acceptance into a Breed Council offers wisdom to this process.  It is the experience of those who have bred and shown a breed, that earn a vote and the privledge to speak with knowledge of the breed.  We, ourselves, are moving toward working exclusively with the Silver cats.  As such, we have 6 Silver lines.  Overall, we have some 20 lines with mixed Silver and Golden.  We are able to register approximately 500 cats born between 1997 and 2010 who meet the standards as we have presented above.   The possibilities increase with our parallel European Burmese program.
If at some point in the future, a group of experienced breeders wish to make a proposal to CFA, we would feel more confident in supporting their plan    and whatever changes they may wish to put forward at that time.  We have the gene pool and numbers to advance the program by 5 to 10 years.  If however,  anyone does not wish to work with us or our standards, then we wish you well.
Ann & Ivan Jan 19
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Hello all, I will be shortly setting up a poll which will run for a week, the poll will ask whether members wish to see the Burmilla put forward as it currently exists in FIFe registering countries and in Australia and New Zealand or in the Asian format of any colour/pattern and Burmese type. Please vote keeping in mind that this may determine the future success of the recognition of the Burmilla in CFA. There are already two well known and experienced people on this list who recognise and indeed embrace other colors and patterns, such as tabbies and DM, who have acknowledged that promoting these aspects of the burmilla breeding program will not be viewed in a positive light at CFA.
Over the past three years I have shown my Burmilla and spoken to CFA and TICA visiting judges, a couple of who remember the aborted attempt to register the Asians with CFA. I  believe that CFA ,and have been told verbally, in no uncertain terms, that CFA, a conservative group at best, will NOT recognise these extra colours and patterns, even as AOV. Accordingly the attempt to have Burmillas recognised will fail just like the last attempt to have Asians recongised. To me these current atttempts looks look trying to get the Asian breed under CFA's radar by using the Burmilla name.
Apart from the difficulties in getting new breeders (and judges) who will understand and accept the genetics of all these interesting colours and patterns, it is my firm belief that breeders should run before they walk, and limiting the colour range at this point will help keep on the track of getting the colour and pattern right at the same time as the type. The Silver Shaded and Tipped coat in the basic colours and the green eyes is also what makes the Burmilla a unique and special cat, with a very appealing presence and appeal, too many other colours and patterns will not have this appeal to draw in new breeders and the public. You need something that is unique and special, something that sets the cat apart from other breeds when starting off a new breed, especially in an organisation as large and diverse as CFA, with many excellent and stand out examples of breeds.
As a dedicated Burmilla breeder watch my lips when I say,  "I will not send Burmillas to any breeder who is going to pursue the other colours and patterns under the Burmilla aegis, nor any breeder who wants to sell cats with breeding rights to any breeder who pursues the other colours and patterns under the Burmilla aegis" In my book a Burmilla is a shorthair or semi longhair Silver Shaded or Tipped cat, in 5 colours (and eventually O gene) end of story! Ticked/classic/. mackerel tabbies, smokes, selfs, Indigos, and any other wierd and wonderful colour and pattern that was never intended to be registered in the original FIFe breeding program is an Asian, and thats the way it should be. Please do not attempt to short circuit a small and very keen group of breeders who are prepared to sacrifice a few things in order to get a toe in the door at CFA.
Michele
-------------- the color highlighting is micheles   wow
First  Let me provide some information.

The breed protocol
Step 1: Burmese x Chinchilla This gives 1st generation, (F1), Burmillas. This results in Shaded or Tipped varieties or occasionally Ticked Tabbies if the Chinchilla carries Golden.
Step 2: F1 Burmilla back again to Burmese This gives 2nd generation, (F2), Burmillas. At this stage you can expect to get Tabbies, Selfs and Smokes as well as Shaded or Tipped varieties.
Step 3: F2 Burmilla to an unrelated Burmilla (any variety) This gives 3rd generation, (F3), Burmillas. Again any variety is possible, including longhaired Burmillas, (Tiffanies), if the F2 cats both carry the longhair gene.
Step 4: F3 Burmilla should be mated back to Burmese This gives the 4th generation, (F4), or full Burmillas.]
What you see above is from our web site and is a direct quote from an email sent by Naomi more than 15 years ago. As I recall she was breed secretary at the time. It is the standard to which we breed and you will see on our web site that each Burmilla is recorded with it's "F" status in order to track the protocol.
As Naomi has said there is some flexibility within the third step, we have varied the second and third step in order to carry down a piece of genetics, we have carried a cat at third status for an extra generation  on occasion in order to fix a piece of genetics ie long hair, and we have bred 3  times sequentially to Burmese on one occasion. No Burmilla departs this cattery as a full Burmilla   that does not have 3 Burmese breedings in it's ancestry.
What must be understood is that when I say "A Burmilla is a Burmese in a fancy coat", or the "Burmilla is a Burmese that one time in it's ancestry was bred to a Chinchilla Persian" -  - this has meaning.
Clearly a Burmilla is a cat that is between one quarter and one eighth Persian based on above protocol.  It is not 1/2 Persian and it is not cobby and is not wide faced.
The F1 Burmilla has a very distinctive look and characteristic, AND it is not the cat that we breed.
The purpose as is clearly stated in the protocol is to import into a Burmese cat the genetics of
1) full colour
2) long hair
3) silver
4) Wide band
5) tipping
The resultant cat is of Burmese type and temperament,  with pattern.
You must clearly understand,  this is not my opinion, it is what this protocol states and as such defines a Burmilla. Long hair, smoke, self, golden and all.
The breeder"s difficulties lies in the second generation because all F1 Burmillas (usually) are golden carriers, and when bred for the second time to a Burmese the breeder experiences loss of silver quality ,with less than 25% possible, the wide band (shading) again <25%, the  tipping is long gone, and the longhair possibilities, to even carry, are a crap shoot (hence the held F3).
You are breeding:
A/a, B/-, C/cb,  D/?, I/i, L/l,  O?,  Ta/-,    Wb/-,    SWB/swb  and
aa,  B?,  cbcb,   D?,  ii,  LL,   ?,   TaTa, wb/wb.   SWB?
This is where most breeders fall down. They don't understand the genetics around smokes, they are fearful of complete loss, they see the so called outcrosses  increasing, with no reward, and they cheat the program by breeding F1 silver to F1 silver. Most never go back to the Burmese because of all the problems. Their resultant cat is 50% Persian or more and is  really no different than an exotic shorthair.
They decide they like this F1 look, rewrite their standards, and with the line breeding they all do,(to "fix the type" is the excuse) are really breeding a shorthair Persian.
The cat should really be called a Chin-ese.
So Keith - when you say our cat looks like the European Burmese  - you have paid us one grand compliment, and I thank you.. Our European Burmese Coomakista's Red Maple Leaf of Horizons was the first Red E Burmese Grand Champion in CFA and he is in the pedigrees. When you outcross to the extent we are committed to, type will go all over the place. After 15 years we are finally beginning to be able to refine that.
SO
Here is the bet.
I bet Michele can-not provide a living cat with a pedigree of her breeding that meets the requirements of the breed protocol as outlined above. In point of fact she can not provide a full unrestricted "full " Burmilla.
Here is the deal.
A) I may be wrong. In which case, if you purchase an F1 Burmilla from Catsland, I will provide you, free of charge, a  E. Burmese of your choosing for your F2 breeding, AND forward to you $1000  usd  towards the purchase of  Michele's cat that she names above for your F3 breeding.
B) If I am right. You agree to register with, breed and  show Burmillas in and to CCA standard. To promote the breed in your area, and maintain that agreement for 10 years, and  if any move towards CFA approval should occur then you will support that CCA standard and the above noted understandings based on the Protocol.
You should note :  Horizons do not place any restrictions on sold cats as to breeding rights and do not sell to breeders who do so. There are 3 of our Burmillas "standing stud" in Europe at this time. see http://www.burmezen.com/db.html.
I await your response and a Pedigree (back to foundation breeding please). 
Ivan   Jan 20
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the protocol you quote is the one that was used in the very early days of GCCF Asian breeding -  it has long since been discarded,  we do not worry about "generations" and haven't done for many years now. 
I think in my lines the nearest Chinchilla is 12 or so generations back.   I've done a couple of outcrosses to Burmese but have mainly mated Asian x Asian for the last 10 years or so.
The whole issue as I see it,  is that CFA absolutely will not accept anything that looks like an EB - it would be anathema to even mention Burmese type in the proposed standard. 
Hence the general feeling that the FIFe standard should be adhered to, as it does not refer to Burmese type.
Naomi
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Excuse me Ivan, our breeding programs and requirements in Australia are totally different than yours. Why should  I have to provide you with a pedigree that fits your requirements? You will note that Miamber Silver Savannah, one of my most current cats is an F2, she has 4th gen Burmilla on the 5th generation of her pedigree, despite the race that appears or happen in some breeding programs I still chose to go back to Burmese with a 3rd gen Burmilla, her grandfather. However my pedigrees are none of your business, they are Keiths should I send cats to him. I choose to go back to Burmese when it is necessary to correct or improve, not because I have to. A Burmilla is not designated by how many times it has Burmese in the pedigree, it is about how well the cat fits the standard at the end of it all, Are the cats registered in FIFe not Burmilla because they don't have as many breedings of Burmese in the pedigree? What a ridiculous idea...........
This is not a competition, nor is it a fight as to whether the Burmilla will go to CCA or CFA. You will note this list is called BurmillaCFA? It is a list originating in the desire to have CFA recognise the Burmilla. I find your attitude offensive and inflammatory, normally any moderator would remove a member who has already tried to hijack the attempt for recognition, offered bribes and incentives and made inferences about others breeding programs, but as I AM the moderator it would look like I am removing you because I am worried about what you are trying to say. Therefore you are on notice, that unless you have something constructive to offer in terms of helping the Burmilla to become recognised in CFA, I suggest you leave. Another posting like this, and I will remove you.
MIchele
----------------- edNo comments were posted by me on the chat group in fact it was Michele who posted my email
I am appreciative of the offer, but at this time, I am not ready to make any commitments. I have visited many website and looked at pedigrees that were available on their sites. My attention was always drawn to the Miamber cats.
As far as breeding Burmilla, I have asked Michele to mentor me if she decides to send me cats.
My main interest at this time is getting the Burmilla recognized in CFA. I have been breeding and showing CFA for 30 years.
I am offering my organization skills, my ability to articulate and present in front of a group and my knowledge of CFA policies.
A breeding program of Burmilla is still secondary to acting as a liason to CFA to get the Burmilla on the right path.
I have been breeding Norwegian Forest Cat for 20 years, and I still do. My breeding ethics are very similar to Micheles.
I sell all my cats and kitten to people I have met in person. Different than anyone else, I never sell a cat for breeding or show that I have not met
several times at a show and have seen their interests.
If you had to rely on me for breeding cats of the Norwegian Forest Cat, you might have a very long wait.
In most cases, I have given the cats to breeders after they were unable to obtain a good specimen after they had been burned by breeders who sold them cats
with definite faults.
Kitty Barie, who I mentor can attest to that. She purchased the first cat from me, and watching her care for the cat and show the cat in the manner that I expected, earned my trust.
I have since given her several cats, which she has shown and bred using my males.
Since Kitty is younger than I and has proved her interest in the cat fancy, I have asked her if she would be interested in pursuing the Burmilla.
Kitty has aspiration of becoming a CFA judge, so she will need to have many requirements with breeding and showing of other breeds.
Well now you can see where I am coming from, so you can say what you want.
I am coming from a whole different viewpoint than most of you who are already breeding Burmilla.
What Elaine Magee and myself bring to the table is many years of breeding our respective breeds and many years of showing CFA.
Our friendship has lasted many years as independent breeders, with Elaine breeding Maine Coons and me breeding Norwegians.
If the Burmilla community feels that we are worthy and have something to offer to the breed, then we will go forward.
I can tell you straight out, when I first approach Michele, I explained that my interest was in breeding Black silver and Chocolate silver only.
I will probably pet out and neuter everything else. So if this is offensive to the Burmilla community, what can I say, it is my choice.
Although Elaine also has interest in doing the longhair, I have absolutely no interest at all. I have one longhair breed and that is enough for me.
FYI- all of my Norwegian are with white. I do not have a single breeding cat that is less than 1/3 white, and again, I have no interest in breeding Norwegians without white.
I apologize to the list if I have gone off topic but I felt it was necessary to let people know where I am coming from.
Keith    Jan 20, 2010,
-------------------
Hello to you all back to Michele
It is always most amusing when you talk genetics to see how many folks take offence. it is rather like shooting the messenger.
You see   - -Genetics  is mathematics
2+2 =4 and as so many say in these cases    "no no it's 5 or 3  -- - I don't like 4"  -  doesn't work!!!
You breed a golden to a silver  you get a golden carrier.
You breed a golden carrier to a golden  you are lucky to get any real  "silvers"  - -  that's math -  don't shoot me for telling you.
If you do not have "golden s" et al. you didn't do the job (foundation breeding), again  thats math, not me,  just math.
A cat that is 85 % Burmese is a very different cat  from a cat that is 50% (and going south)  Burmese.
Again that is math - and if you think that is going to pass a CFA board,  I will eat my hat.
I understand that the Brits waffled on the breed protocol  - so did you and a whole lot of other people.
But my point is,  that is not the original concept,  and you can argue that till you are blue in the face -    but that is just math .
I am not offensive , I am defensive it was you who made the offensive remarks.
and
It most clearly is not a bribe 'cause I will not have to pay - -which I knew without ever looking at your web site or reviewing you pedigrees.
That is the magic of genetics  -I commend it to you.
ivan Jan 21
Ps if you have ever done any real Burmilla breeding your pedigrees will be on the internet web site I mentioned - -  no secret there.


At that point I was kicked off a chat list that I was never on  - - - - - - brilliant.
We were provided with the latest standard

during the course of tha discussion Naomi pointed out the following

Sorry,  this makes no sense at all:
inhibitor, silver
In the self cats [d/d]  this gene can be seen as a lighter colour and is called Caramel in blue tones, Taupe in lilac, and Apricot in cream tones.  They are sometimes talked of as the powder coats.  In  the dense [D/-] cats that are also  sepia [cbcb]  is is sometimes called the Berrington gene . It is most often identified in  b/b, cb/cb,  (champagne)cats. We suggest these terms not be used.
The inhibitor/non inhibitor allele is independent of the dense/dilute (D/d) allele. 
You seem to be saying that caramel and related colours are produced by the inhibitor gene - yet you've just said (in your previous post) that caramel silvers don't exist..........
A dilute Self (aa dd) is either blue, lilac, fawn  or cream.   A Self is homozgous for non-inhibitor (ii)
For everyone's sake (especially those breeders with minimal experience of Burmillas) I really think we need to keep things simple, stick to known, proven genetics,  and not wander off into the realms of fantasy!!
-----------
our response
WOW did I blow that--
Yes you are correct . It makes no sense. Based on the P 141 of Robinsen's
thank you
I believe
the light versions of the solid colors come from the silver in the background       (caramel, taupe, and apricot)
the dark versions of the colors  from the golden in the background

in the Robinsen's version on colors - the caramel is lighter shade of blue
Caramel silver does exist.
I have flipped it in my head  - - as I recalled the term "brownish cast" signifies golden...  darker  (dark lilac=caramel) vs lighter ... my mistake.
I  still believe the basic theory is sound. DM does not exist.

caramel girl this photo from our latest comment on the genetics page also wrong
just to be sure these are two  Burmilla (CCA designation)sisters
the one on the left is lilac tipped golden  the one on the right is blue shaded silver
the cat on the right is caramel???

from gccf
Caramel (Full Expression Color):Cool toned bluish fawn. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen, especially on the head, up the hocks and around the paw pads. The depth and tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based. Nose leather, eye-rims and paw pads: Bluish fawn.
Caramel (Burmese Color Restriction):Cool toned pale fawn graduating to rich honey coloring on the chest and abdomen with lilac overtones. Color may be slightly darker on face, back and tail. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen, especially on the head, up the hocks and around the paw pads. The depth and tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based. Nose leather, eye-rims and paw pads: Pinkish fawn.
Caramel: Cool toned bluish fawn. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen. The tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based. Nose Leather and Paw Pads: Bluish fawn.
golden cats
Caramel (Full Expression Color): Cool toned bluish fawn markings on a ground of cool toned beige. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen, especially on forehead, up the hocks and around the paw pads. The tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based.
Caramel (Burmese Color Restriction): toned pale fawn markings with lilac overtones on a ground of pale beige. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen, especially on forehead, up the hocks and around the paw pads. The tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based.
silver cats
Caramel Silver (Full Expression Color): Cool toned bluish fawn markings on a paler silvery beige ground. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen, especially on forehead, up the hocks and around the paw pads. The tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based.
Caramel Silver (Burmese Color Restriction): Cool toned pale fawn markings with lilac overtones, on a paler silvery beige ground. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen, especially on forehead, up the hocks and around the paw pads. The tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based.
GCCF terms
genetics
CCA terminology
latest cfa
 blue full expression (fe)   
[B/- ,C/-, dd,  dmdm] 
indigo
blue
caramel (fe blue) 
[B/- ,C/-, dd, Dm/-] 
proposed to remove
caramel
 blue as burmese restriction
[B/- ,cbcb, dd, dmdm]
blue
blue
caramel (blue)    
[B/-, cbcb, dd, Dm/-] proposed to remove caramel
Lilac  fe      
[bb ,C/-, dd, dmdm]
frost  proposed
lilac
caramel fe lilac
[bb ,C/-, dd, Dm/-]
proposed to remove caramel
lilac as burmese restriction [bb ,cbcb-, dd, dmdm] lilac
lilac
caramel  lilac
[bb ,cbcb-, dd, Dm/-] proposed to remove caramel

This would ascribe the various levels of blue in a cat                   

Thus for the standard
If you identify a piece of genetics in one place then  are you not obligated to use it all the way ?? , thus the colours Taupe and apricot are required?
It is however like dancing on the head of a pin, and as I have said, in a proposed standard, avoid the issue in the same manner that the Burmese breeders.   Do not differentiate the various genotypic and phenotypic versions of red.
Likewise do not differentiate  the various browns. That solution would have saved Kim a great deal of trouble.
Many of these colours are very difficult in the tipped cat and are resolved only after breeding.
With regard to Lesley's  Post on DM
There are two kinds of genetic information  - - - that you read, and that you breed.  (please, that sounds harder than intended)
We have had numerous breedings with powder coated burmese - identified as such by other breeders- that when bred to a golden cat have produced silver kittens. They are photographed on our web side , both parents and litters.
It is there for you to see.  You are free to duplicate  the breeding under your own jurisdiction and see that you get, and then comment.
I encourage you to do so.
We have also bred a  self champagne [aa bb cdcb] cat to a golden ticked  and produced silver kittens.
Thus we say the relationship of powder coat to golden and silver exists and DM does not.
We believe it to be proven and repeatable.

The end product is a desire to predict breeding outcomes and that we suggest we can do. We claim no expertise in the biochemical processes of color production. If you, or anyone else, have another genetic explanation of the outcomes we would be happy to consider it. That is why we have posted our results on the web site. We know it to be widely read and no-one has disputed our results or conclusions to date in a manner commensurate with that outlined above.

Most genetics is hypothesis, the proof is in the breeding. The DM genetics Pat Turner suggested come from breedings identical to those that Burmilla breeders are undertaking. We suggest, on this Dm,  that she was wrong but will stand corrected if anyone can prove otherwise.

Making these statements is  not to provoke but to check for errors which are easy to make is so complex a topic  - - as you see.
ivan
ps I shall have to check through the web site -  naomi thanks again for taking the time..

Functionaly I have no idea what a caramel is. Every photo I see of the cats as agouti  involves a blue on Golden(brownish cast) and thus is darker. I think we are all messed up me included.


There is another way to approach genetics.  It is via a checkerboard of possible outcomes.
I have done this in the past in  and the checkerboard is based on eye colour. I have upgrade it with a discussion on the possibilities of fur. Is an Excel spread sheet. F1 analysis.
The problem of functioning such a spread sheet  without a program when one deals with this number of variables simply becomes too large. Nine variables plus the variable of eyes,  becomes 2 to the power of 15
Thus I have approached it in a different way.


Breeding a Chinchilla to a  Lilac Burmese - assumption  cats  are homozygous.  O genetics not included.


Agouti/
self
Black/ brown
full colour/sepia
not dilute/dilute
silver/
gold
long hair.not
abby tabby/
mac clsk
wide/narrow band
tipped/not

F1 Breeding
Chin
AA
BB
CC
DD
II
ll
tata
WBWB
swbswb

Burmese
aa
bb
cbcb
dd
ii
LL
TATA
wbwb
SWBSWB

cat outcome      F1 Aa
Bb
Ccb
Dd
Ii
Ll
TAta
WBwb
SWBswb
all are same
in plain Language
note  carriers of every recessive characteristic

agouti, black, full colour, not dilute, silver, short hair, abby tabby, wide band, not tipped,       
F2 Breeding
Sable Burmese
aa
BB
cbcb
DD
ii
LL
TATA
wbwb
SWBSWB

    F1 Aa
Bb
Ccb
Dd
Ii
Ll
TAta
WBwb
SWBswb

F2
(f1 to Sable Burmese)
A outcome
A/a
BB,B/b
C/cb
DD,Dd
I/i
LL,L/l
TATA,TA/ta
WB/wb
SWBSWB,SWB/swb
identical in appearance to F1
B recessive outcome
aa
as above
cbcb
as above ii
as above as above wbwb
nil

in plain language recessive is
self/solid, sepia brown, golden, shorthair, abbytabby, narrowband  - - the undesirable  outcome
ratio recessive
50%

50%

50%


50%


undesirables
50%



50%


50%



50% of cats are solid,  of no use...of the remaining 50% , 50% of them will be golden agouti--- of no use.. leaving 25 and of them 0% will be narrow band or ticked and of no use,  thus  12.5% are of interest in a program that excludes AOV.
Alternate F2 breeding fi cat to f1 cat
F1 cat
Aa
Bb
Ccb
Dd
Ii
Ll
TAta
WBwb
SWBswb

F1 cat
Aa
Bb
Ccb
Dd
Ii
Ll
TAta
WBwb
SWBswb

A  outcome f1  to f1 A/-
B/-
C/-
D/-
I/-
L/-
TA/-
WB/-
SWB/-

B recessive outcome
aa
bb
cbcb
dd
ii
LL
tata
wbwb
swbswb

plain language
self/solid, champagne/lilac, golden, long hair, macheralclassic(spotted), narrow band, tipped - - - the undesirable outcome

ratio recessive
25%
25%
25%
25%
25%
25%
25%
25%
25%



undesirables
25%



25%
??
25%
25%
highly desirable but we do not know of the relationship with wideband


25% are solid, and of no use. Of the remaining 75%  - 25% are golden and of no use leaving 56.25% - - of these 25 % are not abby tabby (mackerel classic) and will show markings leaving 42.12% and of these 25% are narrow band leaving 31.6% of interest in the program
25% of these will be tipped  that is about 7% of total will be highly desirable

Thus we see that for the expedient of making a (31.6-12.5) =19% possibility of holding the shaded cat, and the tipped cat, the Burmese conformity is sacrificed when in fact breeding the f1 smokes and goldens will produce a shaded silver cat identical to an F1 increasing the 12.5% considerably.
note a lot of Chinchillas are not homozygous silver. Things get tougher.
note We have great difficulty understanding that a single  cat litter can contain various breeds. Breeding a Chinchilla to a  Lilac Burmese - assumption  cats  are homozygous


"It is highly desirable that examples of the breed or new color be presented to the CFA Executive Board at one of the regular meetings. It is essential that a breeder, thoroughly knowledgeable in the history of the new breed or color and absolutely familiar with every aspect of the breed or color present the cats and information to the Board."
Quote from CFA web site


in a nutshell

"well for me completely useless as anything i/i I cannot even register. "

that is the source   - -   where Ristuccia is coming from in her standards discussion as proposed to CFA
very short sighted
That is the point she insisted on and where we walked away....
She really doesn't get  the genetics of it all.
Our view  - -it is just to financially prohibitive to do foundation breeding and exclude the goldens when they are carrying so many other characteristics that are desirable, and the golden is so easy to mask out.
additionally her process promotes  1) breeding back to the Chinchilla  (- - - we breed Burm-illa not Chin-ese ;-)) She kick me off the chat group (that I was never on) after I said that  - a true believer in the democratic process----!!)
and
2) inbreeding which is highly risky and not the kind of thing to do at the start of any breed.
take care



March '10 update
It is our understanding that the Burmilla standard going forward to CFA has removed the AOV section, does not include red or "caramel"and,  cats that do not meet the "standard of purity" can not be registered. As articulated from the above, the current promoters also hold the view that any existing Burmilla that lacks the "standard of purity" can not be used in the CFA program. This is the view as put forward by the Australian contingent and endorsed by the parties.
Baring the financial issues that promote this view... we make the following points:
Two points;
1) Registry of domestic animals is long established means of record keeping for the purposes of improving breed.  A registered animal is just that, an animal of established pedigree. That doesn't change if one choses to change the classification within that process, the animal remains
  (a cat) of record. To come from record is to be of record. To suggest otherwise (remove from record) displays a complete misunderstanding of the function and purpose of the registration process.
2) A "Burmilla" is the name chosen to represent the hybrid breed of two cats of record. This breeding of two very refined lines produces cats of record and presents classic hybridization issues.
All GEN 1 cats are identical if one assumes homozygous parents within the characteristics of coat color.  As outlined above:
All are 
agouti, black,  silver, short hair, abby tabby, shaded cats.
The breed protocol does not end there and requires a second breeding to a Burmese and it is here that the recessives start to emerge.
These are
self/solid, sepia brown, golden,  narrowband (tabbies) - -
Clearly,  there are no long haired cats , tipped cats, or Mackerel/Classic tabbies.
The third gen. breeding  allows Burmilla to Burmilla and thus one has to define the objectives of the breed.

As the reader can see with very little review  - - the choices, when looking at all the fancy's so engaged, are arbitrary and "Purity" is in the eye of the beholder, or in some cases, the loudest voice.  Expedience, also plays well in this decision making.

The CCA standard remains the most open, and we initiated moves last year to reduce the large variety of colors and patterns to be shown, while retaining in AOV class,  the full range of possibilities for the foundation breeder. That rewrite of the standard is going forward and is available on this web site. This operation is fully open, and subject to scrutiny at any time.

Breeding the Burmilla is an extraordinary cat experience. Operationally you are working at the front end of genetic understandings. It is a lot of work and the understandings do not come easily. In putting these understandings forward we have always tried to make our points based on the textbooks we read & quote, and the photographs we take & post of breeding outcomes. When other views are questioned they are done based on these texts, and in standard genetic language and nomenclature. Unfortunately these "others" have never answered with anything other than opinion and have been quick to take offense. That leaves only one conclusion.

There is no expertise behind this CFA application. It is harmful to the breed. The Australian breeders promote Caramel genetics which they clearly do not understand, and a breed protocol that allows for repeat F1 to F1 breedings without any understanding of the consequences. They appear not understand the function and purpose of registry.  Ms. Johnson has a record of promoting the use of Abyssinian and other cats in foundation breeding, she promotes Cinnamon and, now
supports of F1 to  F1 breedings that dilute the breed protocol. We have no indication that she is supported in any of her views by her fellow breeders in England. There are clear indications to the contrary. Mr Kimberlin has never bred a Burmese or Burmilla. Ms. Gorbrial has been taken down blind allies before by Ms. Johnson. "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."

I suggest this will leave a number of breeders (again) stranded, with cats that are questionable as to standard,  an inability to legitimately out-cross short of very expensive imports, (and those may well be excessively inbred) and a lot of frustration. This standard discourages foundation breeding, and as a CFA judge expressed to us, "that should be the only route to acceptance of a breeder".

We are ever hopeful of their enlightenment, we sit and wait.


The CFA standard and discussion 2011


Below  you will find what we are advised is the standard to which the cat will be judged. A true copy should shortly be posted to the CFA web site.

Our comments

First and foremost we are pleased that CFA (and ACFA) has undertaken to recognize this cat.

What we would like to do is advise of the pitfalls that lie within this standard, in our view, and in the hope that they can be avoided by CFA's potential breeders.

I will give you a little bit of history, the problems with in the standard, and some possible solutions.

We understand the standard is essentially the work of; 
    Kim Ghobrial, Burmilla breeder in the United States
    Keith Kimberlin, Norwegian Forest Cat breeder in the United States
    Naomi Johnson, Asian cat breeder and judge from England.
    Michele Ristuccia, Burmilla breeder and Lesley Morgan Blythe from Australia  both are  judges
and  as such
reflects their bias.

See all above

Historically the original cross was done in England between a Chinchilla (Persian) and a Lilac Burmese. The original standard comes from there and has spread across Europe and out into Canada and Australia.

This crossing of two refined breeds provides a very standard, very heterozygous first generation outcome. Most of the photos seen  in the cat textbooks are of this F1 cat and defined, for many, what the cat should look like.  They are almost all Black silver shaded, and given the more natural head shape of the English Chinchilla,  - -unrefined in appearance. 

The problem comes  in the F2 generation when all the recessives start to appear.
An additional requirement was placed on the early breeding that required the cat to be bred back to the Burmese 3 times in the first 4 generations, so that the cat was clearly to be, only 1/8 or less Chinchilla. Hence the name,  Burm illa.

Unfortunately the 3 prized characteristics, silver, shading/tipping/and , green eyes became very hard /expensive to hold onto ( they are recessive)  and so many breeders bred F1 to F1 without ever going back to the Burmese. It was however, well understood among all worldwide breeders that a return to the Chinchilla was not allowed, except it would seem, in Australia.

Given the number of non “Burmillas” produced in F2 the English subdivided the offspring in to 3 separate breeds. The original “Burmilla”, the ‘Tiffany” (the long haired version) and the “Asian” to cover all the other varieties.

Various other jurisdictions have chosen various means of dealing with the issue. In Canada all cats of a Chinchilla /Burmese breed pool are called “Burmilla” and their coat colour /pattern describes them i.e. a Black Golden Shaded Longhair Burmilla. There were no restrictions on outcome other than Burmese like varieties would not be shown.

Thus the English wrote into their “Burmilla” standard that an Asian/Tiffany was an allowable outcross along with the Burmese. We understand the Europeans followed suit. The Canadian standard did not have to address the issue.

The Australians, it seem have missed that point. As only a Chinchilla or Burmese can be used in their Burmilla outcross, and the repeated Burmese outcross risks loss of the “prize characteristics”, they have been forced through economics and restricted breed pool issues, to breed back to the Chinchilla.  Hence the “Chin ese.”  (a short hair Chinchilla Persian).
(We also understand other breeds to have been used  -see email comments above)

The Standard
Head
The CFA standard clearly is biased towards the “typee” Chinchilla head and is at variance will the original English standard This will present difficulty when importing most European Burmillas. Look to the Danish Burmilla  Our cat Findus is a good example of what to expect, However the Danes have understood their difficulties with inbreed suppression and we have supplied cats to them.
Holding that standard  will be difficult when out-crossing to a Burmese.
findus6..
Manillas Findus of Horizons (left)
from Maiken Mortensen of Manillas in Denmark 
vs

Horizons Titus (Right)
Sable Shaded Burmilla male
Born June 17 '10 to
Kaminari ( Sable shaded Tortie Burmilla )  shown below  X Dreadnought   Red   European Burmese male
 


Silver
We have been involved in two Foundation breedings. One to an English Chinchilla and the other to a North American Chinchilla Persian. Both carried Golden. Almost all Burmese are Golden so the best you can get is 50% Silver. If the Persian carries Non agouti your odds become even less. You will get smokes..  (see Stella below)
  opra1
    Horizons Oprah
    A (Black) Golden Ticked female Burmilla born 3 May 2007  from Coventry  a Chocolate (Champagne) European Burmese and sire     Catsland Elliot a (Black tipped) Chinchilla Persian.
    Elliot is a North American bred CCA/CFA registered Chinchilla Persian.

note the very broad head, the fur has  a lot of undercoat..


Given the standard as written, these kittens are unregister-able.
Solution take great care in the choice of Persian /Burmilla when doing a foundation or outcross. Very difficult but not impossible to know recessives…

Eye colour
Green is required, all else in "unregister-able".  The green eye is recessive and from the best we have experienced it is a multiple recessive. Given the standard as written, almost all kittens from a Burmese outcross will be unregister able or disqualified.
godivamar08
    Godiva
    Sable tipped  silver  Burmilla female    perfect in every way but...

AOV none
This is an extraordinary position promoted by the Australians. Both the English and the Canadians plus many others, I am sure, allowed for a registration process of the “non standard” cats. The position taken is a clear misunderstanding of the history and function of domestic animal registry. It also demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of breed and genetics.
Let me provide an example. A common outcome in F1 or F2 is a Golden Shaded Black. Another common outcome is a Black Smoke. Both are unregister-able under this standard. If bred together they will produce a classic Burmilla, one that meets the standard and may well have the green eye.  It comes from the same place, and why would it be disqualified? Because it is golden? or non agouti?  But, - - that is what a Burmese is – thus you have disqualified the foundation breeding… Brilliant…
..
Olympia a Black shaded female  and Arctic Mist    platinum/ lilac long hair   female
litter mate sisters
from Oprah above and Paradox, a sable smoke Burmilla male.


Brighid 
Platinum Shaded Silver Burmilla female carries long hair
born Aug 24 2010 to
Arctic Mist...(Lilac smoke LH Burmilla) X  Hector (Black shaded silver Burmilla )


The solution is to try and change the standard – very difficult. We also understand the difficulty of following the Canadian or British route  - - much more complex, but CCA is currently undergoing a breed review and has tentatively agreed to move large groups of outcomes into the AOV class – allowing them to be shown but not championed. Shaded and Tipped, Golden and Silver, and Smokes are retained, for show  all else is AOV. Perhaps ACFA can be persuaded to amend – they are often more flexible. The only other solution is to register CCA or offshore, and wait out the storm…

Patterns
The standard requires the tipping to be as even as possible. That would require the cat to genetically be “abby tabby”  that is to say not a Mackerel, Classic, or Spotted Tabby. As Chinchillas are generally considered to be Mackerel tabbies and almost all Burmese are Abby tabby (Dominant),  F1 cats are so, Many F2’s  from F1 to F1, are not. Breedings back to “Chin” are at high risk to produce this unregistereable Mackerel version.

Colours
The interesting aspect of this section is the choices that were made. This is the same as CCA currently and follows the original English standard. It does present some issues that I would have thought they would have tried to correct.
Genetically a Chinchilla is a Black cat. A Burmese is both Black and Brown in the Burmese sepia form (and or dilute). As Black is dominant all F1 cats are so. It is only is the subsequent breedings that the recessive brown and Sepia browns will show up.
So in fact the colours are
Black;                Brown ie (Havanna);         sepia black (Sable),             sepia brown (Champagne)
The dilute /maltesed version
Blue (Indigo)        Frost,                                  sepia blue                            sepia lilac/platinum

Suggestion: try to avoid the issue if possible.
Given the difficulties of identifying these colours in a tipped or well shaded cat,  breeders should be aware of misidentification and subsequent breeding issues.
The long term solution would be to classify cats as Black, Brown or Blue only. This follows the philosophy already set  in the Red Burmese  of not differentiating the various shades due to underground genetics.
    Red cats
Red cats present some unique problems. The genetics that amend the original colours also render the colour much more susceptible to the silver inhibitor gene. So a cat that is genetically shaded will appear to be tipped and a tipped cat will have almost no colour.
Additionally these (so called) shaded cats are mottled and uneven in colour in many cases. We do not know why but this occurrence has been long noted in the literature and is allied with a smoked cat.
The other issues is within the standard. Silver Torties show no red. Both in the smokes and the shaded /tippers the red patches are blank. For many the only identification of Tortie is in the mouth or paw pads. There will be no “tortoiseshell pattern” and as such will be disqualified in this standard.  A Ticked cat can be misidentified as shaded.
stella 10
Horizons Stella of Kincsem
Sable Tortie Smoke shorthair female  not a red hair in sight
 

Bes Kaminari  of  Horizons a Sable shaded Tortie female Burmilla
from Horizons Silver Phoenix (red tipped) and Bes Sekmet Nefret a golden tipped


Suggestion: Red cats be avoided for the time being.
Note  the paw pad colour descriptors on the Chocolate cats and tortie of the same colour do not match.

Silver

The use of the term “pure white”. That is to say there will be no, (like none) tarnishing. This high penalty, will clearly limit many foundation breedings. It is, in our view, much to high standard for a new breed, and should be something worked towards with time. It again will mitigate a return to the Chinchilla and the “Chin ese” cat.
Solution go offshore.


In conclusion:
Start up of a new breed is exciting and demanding. The Burmilla outcross program, additionally, has great potential to significantly broaden the understanding of the Cat Fancy in the underlying genetics of cat coat colour and pattern. It repeats, in greater depth, the experiments begun by Pat Turner in England a number of years ago. 
Breeding for show only is, in and of itself, a process that reduces genetic diversity. This CFA Standard further limits that necessary diversity required at start-up and, in our view, puts the program at risk in a manner similar to that which befell the Singapura.
We understand the concerns that the complexity the full range of outcomes present. To that end we have, at CCA, been trying to rewrite the Burmilla Standard to reflects a compromise of these issues. see ABCS standards page for those discussions.
We recommend it to you all.




from James Mendenhall from ACFA (which has now accepted the Burmillas as well).

CFA
 STANDARD FOR BURMILLA
(Shorthair & Longhair)
(Revised July 28, 2010)
POINT SCORE
Head: shape, nose, chin (20)
Ears: shape and placement (10)
Eyes: placement, shape and colour (20)
Body: shape and structure; legs and paws; tail, shape and length (25)
Coat: texture, length (10)
evenness of shading/tipping (15)
Total: 100
GENERAL: The Burmilla's appearance is that of an elegant cat of foreign type of medium size.
HEAD: Gently rounded top of head with medium width between ears; wide at eyebrow level and jaw
hinge, tapering to a short, blunt wedge.
NOSE: The profile shows a gentle dip. Tip of nose and chin should be in line.
CHIN: Firm with good depth.
EAR: Medium to large, broad at base with slightly rounded tips. Set with a slight forward tilt in
profile. Viewed from the front the outer line of the ear continues that of the face. This may not be so
in mature males who develop a fuller cheek.
EYE: Large; placed well apart at a slightly oblique setting; curved upper line angled towards the
nose with a fuller curved lower line.
EYE COLOR: Luminous and expressive, outlined with the basic color. Color any shade of green. A
Yellow tinge acceptable in kittens and young cats under two years of age.
BODY: Medium length and size. Rounded chest of medium width. Back Straight from the
shoulder to the rump.
LEGS & FEET: Slender legs with strong bones, hind legs slightly longer than forelegs. Paws are
Neat and oval.
TAIL: Medium to long with medium thickness at base. Tapering slightly to a rounded tip.
COAT: (Shorthairs) Short with a silky texture, smooth lying with sufficient undercoat to give a slight
lift.
COAT: (Longhairs) Fine and silky coat medium long, except over the shoulders without a woolly
undercoat. Ear tufts, furnishings and full tail plume are preferable.
COAT COLOR: Pure silver white ground color, Shaded or Tipped in the recognized colors. For color
varieties refer to the following descriptions.
PENALIZE: A bump on the nose is undesirable. Weak chin. Tabby marks in tipping, solid colored
hairs, uneven tipping, brown or yellow tinge in coat. On Tipped, any color on the hocks.
DISQUALIFY: Incorrect eye color in adults. Cobby or oriental body. Coat too shaggy in Shorthair
or excessive undercoat in Longhair Burmilla.
ANY OTHER BURMILLA COLORS: All accepted colors that are possible from the Hybridization of
the original outcross.
AOV: None
ALLOWABLE OUTCROSSES: Chinchilla Persian (excluding 3000 CPC designation) , European
Burmese.
BURMILLA PATTERNS
TIPPED / SHADED :
Hairs are tipped with the appropriate color. Tipping as even as possible. Tipping/Shading down from the back to
the flanks and lighter on the front of legs. The coat on the head, ears, back, flanks and upper side of the tail must
be tipped with color. Chin, ear tufts, chest and belly, inside of the legs and underside of the tail must be without
tipping.
TIPPED: Coat Color: Tipping about 1/8 of the entire hair length. The tipping is to be evenly distributed to give the
characteristic sparkling appearance. Face and legs may be slightly shaded, but chin, ear furnishings, belly, chest
and underside of tail must be pure white. Face and legs may be slightly shaded with very light tipping. In general a
Tipped cat appears to be much lighter than a Shaded. Descriptions are valid for all Tipped colors.
SHADED: Coat Color: Tipping about 1/3 of the complete hair length. The shading is to be evenly distributed to
give the characteristic sparkling appearance. Face and legs may be slightly shaded with the tipping but chin, ear
furnishings, belly, chest and underside of tail must be pure white. Broken rings on the legs are permitted. The fur
on the underside of the feet is coloured with the colour of the tipping, on the back of the hind feet the color extends
up as far as to the joint. In general a Shaded cat appears to be much darker than a Tipped. Description are valid
for all Shaded colors.
BURMILLA COLORS
BLACK TIPPED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail tipped with Black. Eye and Nose
Rims: Outlined in Black. Nose Leather: Brick Red. Paw Pads: Black or Seal Brown.
BLACK SHADED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail shaded with Black. Eye and
Nose Rims: Outlined in Black. Nose Leather: Brick Red. Paw Pads: Black or Seal Brown.
BROWN TIPPED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail tipped with Seal Brown. Eye and
Nose Rims: Outlined in Seal Brown. Nose Leather: Brick Red. Paw Pads: Seal Brown
BROWN SHADED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail shaded with Seal Brown. Eye
and Nose Rims: Outlined in Seal Brown. Nose Leather: Brick Red. Paw Pads: Seal Brown.
BLUE TIPPED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail tipped with Blue. Eye and Nose
Rims: Outlined in Blue-Grey. Nose Leather: Old Rose. Paw Pads: Blue.
BLUE SHADED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail shaded with Blue.
Eye and Nose Rims: Outlined in Blue-Grey. Nose Leather: Old Rose. Paw Pads: Blue.
CHOCOLATE TIPPED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail tipped with Chocolate
Brown. Eye and Nose Rims: Outlined in Chocolate Brown. Nose Leather: Pale Red/Pink. Paw Pads: Warm
Chocolate Brown.
CHOCOLATE SHADED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail shaded with Chocolate
Brown. Eye and Nose Rims: Outlined in Chocolate Brown. Nose Leather: Pale Red/Pink. Paw Pads: Warm
Chocolate Brown.
LILAC TIPPED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail tipped with Lilac. Eye and Nose
Rims: Outlined in Lavender Pink. Nose Leather: Pinkish Red/Pink. Paw Pads: Lavender Pink.
LILAC SHADED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail shaded with Lilac. Eye and Nose
Rims: Outlined in Lavender Pink. Nose Leather: Pinkish Red/Pink. Paw Pads: Lavender Pink.
CREAM TIPPED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail tipped with Cream. Eye and
Nose Rims: Outlined in Pink. Nose Leather: Pink. Paw Pads: Pink.
CREAM SHADED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail shaded with Cream. Eye and
Nose Rims: Outlined in Pink. Nose Leather: Pink. Paw Pads: Pink.
RED TIPPED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail tipped with Red. Eye and Nose
Rims: Outlined in Pink. Nose Leather: Pink. Paw Pads: Pink.
RED SHADED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail shaded with Red. Eye and Nose
Rims: Outlined in Pink. Nose Leather: Pink. Paw Pads: Pink.
BLACK TORTIE TIPPED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail tipped with Black and
Red (light and dark shades) harmoniously distributed in tortoiseshell pattern. Eye and Nose Rims: Outlined in
Black, Pink, or patched with both. Nose Leather: Black, Pink, or patched with both. Paw Pads: Black, Pink, or
patched with both.
BLACK TORTIE SHADED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail shaded with Black
and Red (light and dark shades) harmoniously distributed in tortoiseshell pattern. Eye and Nose Rims: Outlined in
Black, Pink, or patched with both. Nose Leather: Black, Pink, or patched with both. Paw Pads: Black, Pink, or
patched with both.
BROWN TORTIE TIPPED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail tipped with Seal
Brown and Red (light and dark shades) harmoniously distributed in tortoiseshell pattern. Eye and Nose Rims:
Outlined in Seal Brown, Pink, or patched with both. Nose Leather: Brick Red, Pink outlined with Brown, or patched
with both. Paw Pads: Seal Brown, Pink, or patched with both.
BROWN TORTIE SHADED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail shaded with Seal
Brown and Red (light and dark shades) harmoniously distributed in tortoiseshell pattern Eye and Nose Rims:
Outlined in Seal Brown, Pink, or patched with both. Nose Leather: Brick Red, Pink outlined with Brown, or patched
with both. Paw Pads: Seal Brown, Pink, or patched with both.
BLUE TORTIE TIPPED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail tipped with Blue-Grey
and Cream (light and dark shades) harmoniously distributed in tortoiseshell pattern Eye and Nose Rims: Outlined
in Blue-grey, Pink or patched with both. Nose Leather: Blue-Grey, Pink or patched with both. Paw Pads: Blue-
Grey, Pink or patched with both.
BLUE TORTIE SHADED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail shaded with Blue-Grey
and Cream (light and dark shades) harmoniously distributed in tortoiseshell pattern. Eye and Nose Rims: Outlined
in Blue-grey, Pink or patched with both. Nose Leather: Blue-Grey, Pink or patched with both. Paw Pads: Blue-
Grey, Pink or patched with both.
CHOCOLATE TORTIE TIPPED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail tipped with
Chocolate Brown and Red (light and dark shades) harmoniously distributed in tortoiseshell pattern. Eye and Nose
Rims: Outlined in Chocolate Brown, Pink or patched with both. Nose Leather: Milk Chocolate, Pink or patched
with both. Paw Pads: Cinnamon to Milk Chocolate, Pink or patched with both.
CHOCOLATE TORTIE SHADED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail shaded with
Chocolate Brown and Red (light and dark shades) harmoniously distributed in tortoiseshell pattern. Eye and Nose
Rims: Outlined in Chocolate Brown, Pink or patched with both. Nose Leather: Milk Chocolate, Pink or patched
with both. Paw Pads: Cinnamon to Milk Chocolate, Pink or patched with both.
LILAC TORTIE TIPPED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail tipped with Lilac and
pale Cream. Eye and Nose Rims: Outlined in Lavender Pink, Pink or patched with both. Nose Leather: Lavender
Pink, Pink or patched with both. Paw Pads: Lavender Pink, Pink or patched with both.
LILAC TORTIE SHADED: The undercoat is pure white; back, flanks, head, ears and tail shaded with Lilac and
pale Cream. Eye and Nose Rims: Outlined in Lavender Pink, Pink or patched with both. Nose Leather: Lavender
Pink, Pink or patched with both. Paw Pads: Lavender Pink, Pink or patched with both.