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go to genetics II
    Silver in Burmese
    Spotting
    Wide band
    Angel Christian litter
    First hint of super wide band
    Second hint of swb
    super wide band  - proof
    Genetics of B1
    Lavina and Fundus litter + variations on smoking

Applied Genetics or A Genetic Discussion. (as of 11/06/01) draft 3  -Sp in, Dm out more thoughts.
These discussions assume that the reader has some knowledge of, and is interested in, broad based cat genetics. We will not try to teach the subject here but rather point out the characteristics of the breed, as they appear and as we see them. We are not always correct, sometimes we must amend our conclusions in light of subsequent breeding, and increased understanding.
This section is written in 'thought process' order. and a such may appear to be disjointed to the reader. We apologize but thought you might be interested in following along with us. Besides to continually rewrite as our knowledge expands would take too much time ;-).

There are many good web sites on the internet on "cat genetics".  For our text references we use Gloria Stephen's book Legacy of the Cat edit #1,  and Robinsons 'Genetics for Cat Breeders and Veterinarians' edit #4. We recommend the beginner to Gloria Stephen's book Legacy of the Cat. It has more information packed into a few pages, with explanatory pictures, than any other text we have found. We use both books bouncing from one to the other. Gloria also has a good web site with many links. (Key word her name on a search engine.) A very good article by Breton /Creek is posted on the Net Pets site. That same article is posted on various sites. It has, what I suggest is a, formatting problem on its second chart that created some confusion for me, but the same article is posted on Ms. Stephen's site in its original form. This cleared up my misunderstanding. Note; as of Christmas 2001 we have "Legacy" edit. #2

Take warning, this subject is not for the faint hearted or those "clone breeders" who spent their time discussing head type and genetically manage little else. We struggle with the subject as those readers of this site can attest to.

We are dealing with the genics of cat fur. It is often only this aspect that differentiates a "Breed' so that within the Burmilla (burmese/chinchilla) gene pool are genetics that are exclusive to many other 'breeds'. The only other breeding programs, we can think of that has this diversity are the The Oriental short and longhair and the Abyssinian/Somali.
 

Most laymen understand that a cat is either long haired or short. Short hair is the dominant genetic trait but this is not quite so simple as is suggested, in our experience. None of our so called long haired cats have anything like the coat length of the Persian. They would probably be classified as semi longhairs if CCA had such a designation. Hair length seems to be a degree sort of thing. Hair discussions also need to talk about undercoat, its thickness lift or pushiness if you will. We are not sure of those genetics but it now appears to us that this dense under fur is transmitted separately from long fur and that is is a recessive. Our shorthairs seem to have some lift but not much after the second generation and we work to reduce this characteristic.
We see our LH Burmilla as having very much softer fur than the Chinchilla. The thickness of the undercoat is again somewhat variable but considerably less than the Persian cat resulting in a coat that lies down, and does not mat or require the large amount of care that Persians require. The other distinguishing feature is the LH Burmilla tend to look slightly out of focus or misty due to the fineness of the hair shafts. As with most LH cats they have the "wings" out to the side at the base of the ears. Neutering the cat often results in an increase in coat length. An example of that is some early/late views of Meerani on this site. We hope to spend some time on hair genetics, as it does play into color perception but we need a microscope to do that. Hope for a good Christmas present.

Genetics of Fur in the Burmilla Program
In play are A.B.C.D.L.O.Ta.I.Dm.Wb
That is
A  - Agouti/non. a is non
B  - Black/chocolate.  b is chocolate
C  - Full colour/sepia. cb is sepia or burmese restriction
D  - Dense/maltesed pigmentation.  d is dilute or maltesed
L  - Short/longhair. l is long hair  (Note this is one where the capital letter does not denote the dominant characteristic)
O  - Orange/non Sx link. o is not having the sex inked orange color override
Ta - Tabby Abyssinain/non. ta being not aby tabby and allowing mackeral / classic and spots to show through
I  - Inhibitor/golden. i being golden which we thing is the basic ground color of the fur. There are other considerations here re high rofusion.
Wb -Wide/narrrow band. wb being narrow  band (our terminology)

ta/ta requires that we consider Mc and Sp. These are Mackerel/classic tabby and Spotting/non. Unless we are dealing with ta/ta we will leave then out of the genetic string.
We have discounted Dm, Dilute/non modifier after running it for some time. Our comments as to why are below.
We do not discuss R (re) - normal coat not rex, s/s -  normal colour not piebald, w/w  - normal colour not dominant white, and wh/wh - normal coat not wirehair at this time. We assume all cats are R/R, s/s, w/w, wh/wh, bu---ut  who knows!!
We are beginning to think of very wide band cats as in the Chinchilla as super wide band (swb). normal/not being SWB. This is our descriptor as we know of no other.

The brick nose is related to all this , but I don't know how yet. O cats don't count, 'cause its masked??. All a/a cats do not have one. It now seems all A/- cats do. Of those, the brick nose appears as late as  4 weeks after birth, in some cases and as we see it. we can not find a text reference to this.

There are some basic phenotypic/genetic facts that I will deal with.

The silver inhibitor gene I,  is separate from agouti gene. Robinsons p 142 defines a smoke as being a NON agouti cat. They say " The silver tabby exhibits a fairly low level of expression of this gene, while the chinchilla silver is a fine example of extreme phenotype...The smoke is the non-agouti form(aaI-). The white undercoat is evident but each hair contains appreciably more pigment due to the lack of the additive inhibitory properties of the agouti factor."
In the prior para Robinsons also says
"Because the melanin inhibitor gene is extremely variable in its expression, it can exhibit impenetrance, resulting in occasional cats with no visible white undercoat that nonetheless breed as smokes"
Wide band(Wb), a hypothesized gene, is explained as "presumed effect of the gene is to widen the agouti band on the hairs" Robinsons p 138 and "Longhaired cats expose more of the agouti band and do not have such an obvious tabby pattern as do shorthairs." and "The golden tabby, shaded golden and chinchilla golden were developed from chinchilla longhairs.

We have had some unusual results. We will try and explain them using Wb and I.

Lastly, please bear in mind that I (your editor) am not a English major, and 'are' a two fingered typist.
 

1)	It seems that the width of the band is variable Wb/-. It is at its highest degree in the Chinchilla Persian a tipped or cameo cat. The band can be either silver(I/-) or golden (i/i). The silver I gene is much stronger in its colour inhibition qualities.  Robinsons p138 Please note :  for now   We understand  Self (a/a)=100% colour.  Smoke(a/a,I/-) =50-75% colour.  Shaded=25-50% colour.  Tipped =Chinchilla=(A/-.I/-.Wb/- < 25% colour.  Full expression = C/- Burmese colour =Pointed=Sepia=cb/cb The kitten to the left  is the daughter of Purr-sephone, a  A/a.B/-.cb/cb.D/d.L/l.oo.Ta/-.I/-.Wb/- tipped,ticked cat  and Zeus a sepia champagne smoked non ticked cat (a/a.b/b.cb/cb.D/d.L/l.oo.Ta?.I/-.Wb/-). She is  A/a.B/b.cb/cb.D/-.L/-.o/o.Ta/-.I/-.Wb/- or shaded (to tipped), ticked (adjouti A/-), sepia sable Sh Burmilla kitten.  Burmillas tend to lighten up as their full silvered undercoat comes in.
2)	Here we have a much darker Burmilla with more colour on the shaft.  She is the also the daughter of Purr-sephone and Zeus. While it is early to be sure it would seem she has about 50% colour on the hair shaft along the back.The ticking extends over the paws and the necklace is almost complete. We suggest that this is about as far as you could go before the cat would then be classified as a Ticked Tabby Burmilla. Generally to qualify as a "Tabby" cat the necklace must be full and complete, more than 2/3 of the hair shaft must be coloured and all the body should be ticked.  Thus reduced inhibitor results in the "Ticked Tabby"  The question becomes 'what in the genetics has produced this different inhibitor affect'. She is  A/a   - no question, adjouti B/b  - again no question black cb/cb -   she has to be sepia black she is not .LL or O  dilute long or orange there only 2  possible  genes in play Wb and I she has to be wb/wb   -  narrowband She is also I/- silver
3)	This (dual view photo) kitty also comes  from Purr-sephone, and Zeus In the unticked cats it can often be very difficult to decide on colour.  You could have, a sepia black (B/-.cb/cb) giving brown to the eye as is a sable Burmese), a full colour chocolate (b/b.C/-. also brown to the eye as in a Havana , or a poorly smoked sable ie. with a very little inhibitor (wb/wb) giving light brown to the appearance.  This boy must be (a/a.B/-.cb/cb). It is the recessives that define the situation.
4)	This composite photo is of another of Pursephone's litter. Note  the rich brown in a sable self boy above and the lighter brown  sable sister to the left.  What is of interest here is the white spot on this girls chest. She is (a/a.B/-.cb/cb) as is her brother Again there only 2  possible  genes in play Wb and I to define the difference.  She has to be I/- to have silver she has to be wb/wb   - narrowband  The only conclusion can be that she is a narrow band smoke.  Therefore we believe the genetics of narrow/wide band are straight forward, that there is no significant "variable expression". We also suggest that the only reason it shows is due to the sepia gene. This white chest patch is an issue on some Burmese. We postulate most and not all Burmese are narrow band golden(wb/wb.i/i). Those that show white patches are likely narrow band silver(wb/wb.I/-). Go test the theory. The reader should note that our conclusion does not agree with Gloris Stephens Edit #2. page 21 wherein she defines a smoke as wbwb (narrow band) she says.."..other genes involved..We know that the inhibitor is there because when we breed a smoke X brown tabby we get silver tabbies. " A smoke in our understanding is  a/a...I/-....Wb/-  ---non agouti, silver,wide band  a brown tabby is; (we assume narrow band, see below) A/-. ..i/i.. wb/wb --agouti, golden, narrow band offspring  If one assumes homozygous it all cases A/-...I/-... Wb/-    ---which is what she says she gets ---I would assume the tabby  it is wide band.  We do not see anything that damages our theory.
5)	The recessive of the silver inhibitor gene is expressed as golden (i/i). It then gives a golden colour to the background vice silver when the agouti banding of the colour on the hair shaft is in the off mode.  We have been advised that a golden shaded tabby has been done. The golden Persian is there so it must be possible. This is discussed in the Wide band hypothesis in Robinsons p 138. Our Black Ticked Golden Tabby F1 Burmilla girl, MissTick, with lots of ticking and a very nice necklace. she comes from  Renaissance , a Sable Traditional Burmese a/a.B/-.cb/cb.D/.L/L.oo.Ta/.i/i.wb/wb and  we assume Ta and L/L as are most Burmese . Christian, our Chinchilla Persian. A/-.B/-.C/-.D/-.l/l.oo.ta/ta.Mc?.Sp?I/i..Wb/wb we assume ta/ta see tile 25 below. We know from his pedigree that his mother was golden i/i. We also know that he is heterozygous for Wb as you will see below tile 20. Thus Misstick is agouti, black, full colour,,not dilute, short hair, not orange, abby tabby, golden, narrow band. A/a.B/-.C/cb.D/-.L/l.oo.Ta/ta.i/i.wb/wb a mother cb mother l father ta father
6)	Well this is Mistick's litter with Simon a Cream Burmese, and that boy in the front was a big surprise. This then has to mean that the silver boy got his stuff from Simon and that Simon is heterozygous (I/i) for this characteristic.  Simon is a/a.B?.cb/cb.d/d.L/L.O/y.Ta/-.I/i.wb/wb we believe the kitten is A/a.B/-.cb/cb.D/-.L/-.o/y.Ta/- I/i. wb/wb.
Spotting	Robinsins P 136 para 5.  I will paraphrase. There are 3 separate genes locations operating on the tabby pattern. The are: Ta (abby tabby/not); Mc (mackeral tabby/classic); and Sp (spotting /not). If a cat is Ta/-, the Mc and the Sp can not be seen. It is epistatic. If a cat is ta/ta (not) and sp/sp (not) a cat can be seen as Mc/- mackeral, or mc/cm  classic. If a cat is ta/ta and Sp/- it will be spotted and if Mc/-, have full spots  if mc/mc have donut spots ie ocicats.
7)	This composite photograph shows another possible Burmilla variation, the Spotted Tabby. A Black Spotted Golden Tabby F1 Burmilla girl, Tiverton's Andromeda. She is the daughter of Katie a Sable Traditional Burmese and Chicos Christian of Strathkirk, a Chinchilla Persian. We knew The boy was (I/i).  and as also proven below (Panel 20) he is also Wb/wb. Andromeda belongs to Ms. Pat Slater of Tiverton Cattery . Robinsons p 137 deals with all this and is very confusing. First para they say "Expression of the Abyssisian pattern may manifest itself in two ways: - as a week striping on the legs and rings on the tail for the heterozygote Ta/ta .Mc/- or mcmc - as the absence or reduction of these markings for the homozygote Ta/Ta .Mc/- or mc/mc" This has nothing to do with spotting and should be ignored at this time. It is a very minor point anyway. Robinsons are not clear what a ta/ta.Mc/- or mc/mc cat would look like. Stephens says p13 last para "The agouti(Abyssinan tabby or ticked tabby) appears to be dominant to other patterns..." She than photos the 3 patterns on page 14 they are the 1) Abby tabby, (my word); 2) Mackerel Tabby (bars down the side); 3) Classic tabby (with the bulls eye on the side). Robinsons also says just proir to their above quote; "use the letters Mc to represent the dominant mackeral tabby paturn, while mc ... the recessive classic, blotched tabby pattern." We will hence forth remove their term "blotched ". Robinsons then go on to say in their next para and the reader will note that I have reordered these 2 quotes for better understanding (my view) and removed a misprint; "Breeding data suggest a dominant modifying gene(...Sp) responsible for the spotted tabby phenotype" and  "...two forms of spotted tabby pattern. The first is a modification of the mackerel in which the vertical stripes are discontinuous (giving) short bars or spots. Modification of the 'classic' tabby pattern ...for the round 'ocicat' type spots.  Stephens concurs on p 79 It thus falls out that a Ta/- will mask the Mc/- or mc/mc patterns, and all Sp/- cats. Further,  all mackeral and classic tabbies, are sp/sp.
8)	This is a photo of a very young, and fast moving, Silver Spotted Tabby F1 Burmilla kitten. He is the son of Ginette. a Platinum Traditional Burmese and Christian   our foundation Chinchilla Persian.   The genetics then yields that both Ginette and Katie are  -/ta cats, and  Christian may well be Sp/- but so too could the Burmese ladies. My bet is the ladies 'cause we have seen it so seldom, but time will tell.
9)	In the summer of 2001 we have this rather remarkable litter, (to the left) which along with Misstick's boy got us reading the textbooks. We will put our theories to work Diana, a Black Smoke Tortie Burmilla, shown here with her kittens, was bred to Wigram a Sable (Brown in England)Burmese stud. Diana is a/a.B/-.C/C.D/d.L/-.Oo.T?.I/i.Wb/- she is smoke - by our definition wide band  Wigram is a/a.B/b.cb/cb-.D/d.L/L.o/o.Ta/-.i/i.wb/wb he is not I he has no white and he is certainly not wide band  assume because he is a burmese  Ta. He carries chocolate from his previous litters and dilute from his fathers pedigree and his litters
10)	So, as far as we can tell Diana is a homozygous for "Full Colour" and is a (C/C) cat because none of the kittens are sepia. we have made her so above.     We know Wigs carries genetics for dilution sometimes called "Maltesing". Because he is sable and he "carries", he is(heterzygous D/d). The kitten on the right indicated that Diana does also, thus she is D/d It is a Indigo tortie female. There is no colour change along the hair shaft. the Rh kitten would be a/a.B/-.C/cb.d/d.L/-.Oo.T?.i/i.wb/wb  i/? she has no silver and is very dark  we believe this indicates i/i which is possible there is no wide band C/cb  no sepia showing father sepia   the Lh kitty would be a/a.B/-.C/cb.D/-L/-.Oo.T?.I/i.Wb/wb  clearly silver and smoke Wb Both phenotypes match the possibilities.
11)	Diana produced two full expression cream male kittens One is shown fully here. That is his brothers head. Their coats are identical in appearance. Genetically creams can be : a/a.B/-.C/-.d/d.O/y.    which would be masked Black dilute a/a.B/-.cb/cb.d/d.O/y.   masked Black sepia dilute a/a.b/b.C/-.d/d.O/y.   masked Brown dilute and a/a.b/b.cb/cb.d/d.O/y. masked Brown sepia dilute. We are not considering the b1 genes Given our conclusions above in panel 4, each colour could also be I/- or i/i giving a min. combination genetic possibility of 4X2=8 We think these 2 boys are; a/a.B/-.C/cb.d/d.L/-.O/y.Ta/-.I/i.wb/wb  We believe them both to be shaded ?? silver and are certain they are not sepia, but are continuing to monitor. We have wavered on this as these two factors are very hard to differentiate in a cream. Of the last 3 items i is largely a guess as creams can easly mask this qualities. As is discussed below they are clearly wb/wb - narrow band.
12)	Opposite is  a Full Colour Red.  Without considering cinamon (b1), red cats can be masked : a/a.B/-.C/-.D/-.O/y.   Black  a/a.B/-.cb/cb.D/-.O/y.   Black sepia  a/a.b/b.C/-.D/-.O/y.  Brown dilute a/a.b/b.cb/cb.D/-.O/y. Brown sepia  Again given our conclusions above in panel 4, each colour could also be I/- or i/i giving a min. combination genetic possibility of 4X2=8 This boy  is; a/a.B/-.C/cb.D/-.L/-.O/y.Ta/-.i/i.wb/wb   If ever there was a dmdm cat this would be it. It is this panel that concludes dm/dm is functionally = to i/i and therefore nonexistant. We also find interesting the photo in Stephens p 89 of a persian litter. He is Ta because the tabby pattern can be seen. He is certainly i/i there is no silver, and he is not wideband. That also can be seen. He proves his mother to be I/i, We have made her so.   His colour is very distinguishable from that of a Red Burmese (Sepia red). It is much more intense and was apparent from birth. Often the best clue to full colour versus sepia is the birth colour.  Of interest is the colour of the markings on the back of the leg and the stomach of this boy in the picture below in the top right corner.
13)	The boy on the left has no leg barring, or stomach markings, he is silver in that area. His forehead colour is slightly less intense than than his red brother with the M marking being more noticeable.  As with the creams if one hadn't seen the rest of the litter it would be easy to believe this might be a Sepia and not Full Colour cat. That is the black smoke tortie girl with him
14)	Both Robinsons (details pgs 143 and 163) and Ms. Stephen's agree wherein she says on page 12 "The nom-adjouti gene is not operative on phaeomelanin. In red or cream cats, the red and yellow bands (adjouti  banding) are present, allowing the tabby pattern to be seen." See also Robinsons p 163 para 2-4 they are very clear on this. It then falls out that an A/- can not be differentiated from a/a  cat. Our 8 possible genetic possibilities in a red or cream cats become 16. We also remind you of panel 12. The i/i (non silver/golden) cat is different in appearance.    A Red, a Red shaded ?? and a Cream shaded?? No a self narrow band golden red, a self narrow band silver red and a self narrow band silver cream.  We expect a wide band golden red would be difficult. The photos of the Abyssinian Ruddy see Stephens p 28 are interesting.
15)	the self narrow band silver red boy  a/a.B/-.C/cb.D/-.L/-.O/y.Ta/-.I/i.wb/wb the I/i is the only difference with his red brother who is i/i A red burmese would be;  self, narrow band, silver, sepia, red, golden or silver.... And just what do you think the difference between golden and silver would look like??  Those cats are already in the show rings.
16)	Three variations on a red theme of I. The conclusion then is that as Diana is smoked. There are no ticked cats in the litter. We also conclude that she is homozigous for full colour, (C/C) as there do not appear to any Sepia (cb/cb) cats in the litter. There are one other questions that then comes out of this picture.  What is the boy in the center The Red Tip.Where did that level of silver come from?
17)	Robinson P142  "This gene (I) appears to have a greater ability to suppress phaeomelanin pigmment than eumelanin..resulting in the prevention of the eumelanine to phaeomelanin shift.  ."   Another view of the red tipped boy. He (in front) can't be tipped genetically.  He certainly is by appearance.
18	We think that the difference between the 3 cats is wide band and silver. The very red being i/i narrow band, the red ("shaded" ) being  I/i narrow band and this boy being I/i .Wb/- wideband. Thus this boy is: a/a.B/-.C/cb.D/-.L/-.O/y.Ta/-.I/i.Wb/- He is a self, red, wide band = smoke red=cameo An interesting point is that this boy's colour coat is very even and is darkening as he ages.
	Subsequent to this breeding Flamethrower produced a litter with Wigram that helped us further to define the red colouring in the Burmilla. Our comments on that, and a photo of her litter, are with her linked picture. You will note we had to redo her colour.
19	Silver tends to wash out the red (Phaeomelanin) colour more than non red as in black brown or blue (Eumelanin) cats. [ see quote above]Almost all smokes appear to be tipped.  We suspect they are not so genetically. Medusa (opposite) also displays a  often seen 'moire' effect, that is a patchiness of the red colour which we often see in smoked (we think ) non red cats when young.  ( I wonder if this it the 'tarnishing' than Robinson refers to on P 142 and p144 where it is called a 'manifestation of rufus polygenes') This tends to even out with age. This kitty comes from;  Aurora who is  the daughter of CH Mimosa Morning , a Champagne Tortie Foreign Burmese  who was (a/a.b/b.cb/cb.D/d.L/L.O/o.asm Ta/-.i/i wb/wb )and Orion, a Red Tipped Silver F1 Burmilla short hair who was (A/a.?. C.cb.D? L/l.Ta/??.I/i.Wb/-) : Auroria is; ?/a.?/b.?/cb.D?.L/-.O/O.Ta/?.I/i.Dm?.Wb/- we suspect given our present understanding she is A/- and  Far  who is  a  72 43fsq (shorthair shaded cream  silver sepia)cat  from a 72 43s (shorthair black shaded silver)sire and a 6843 dsq (longhair shaded red silver sepia) dame. Far is; A?.B?.cb/cb.d/d.L/-.O/y.Ta?-.I/-.Dm?.Wb/- As of 10/30/01 we believe this cat in the photo to be agouti, unknown on black, probably sepia,  dilute,  carrying long, orange, silver, and wide band. A/-. ??. cb/cb.d/d.L/l.O/O.I/- and Wb/- We also believe that given the similar eveness of colour of Far to the boy above in panel 18 that Far may be smoke as is his sister Leading Lady. All ?  should resolve with Burmese breedings.  Given our comments below Far may be I/I and not smoke So we expected all the her littermates to be very silvered and they were.
20	Here we have a litter of  Christian, our Chinchilla Persian. who is  A/-.B/-.C/-.D/-.l/l.oo.ta/ta.Mc?.Sp?.I/i.Wb/wb Angel a cream Burmese a/a.B/-.cb/cb.d/d.L/L.O/O.asm Ta/.asm i/i.asm dmdm.wb/wb all kittens are  A/a. B/-.C/cb.D/d.L/l.O/o or y. Ta/ta.I/- and Wb/ except the red boy who appears to be I/i wb/ wb thus Christian must Wb/wb. You will note above we said we assumed Angle i/i. Latterly we remember Angle is the sister to Simon [see panel (6)] Angel may well have been I/i and given the distribution of the litter, and Christians golden mother, very likely was I/I. This litter included Orian, Calypso, Vesta, and Horizons Dynasty Dawn of Gitalya. The boy in the center bottom shows the uneven red coat we see as being typical of 'red.agouti .wide bands'. This could be what Robinsons refers to on P 142  "Occasional break-through production of phaeomelanin pigment can occur in silver cats, resulting in a phenommenon commonly referred to as 'tarnishing'.  This appears to solely occur in cats heterozygous for the I allele."

Our conclusions so far:
a) All Burmese are wb/wb -  narrow band (well duh! you say)   homozygous and we take the Wb  genetics hypothesized in Robinsons p 138 as straight forward single gene inheritance.

b) Burmese are I/I I/i and i/i.  We take that as proven. One of the curious aspects of Robinsons is that they do not spend much time discussing  the recessive. All cats have the same genes, and like it or not they , the recessives, are doing something.

c) We speculate that Burmese with the white locket (See also Robinsons P151 on Lockets) are  a/a cats with I/- or if you will, are an example of narrow band smokes.  Our speculations do not agree with Robinsons p 151 conclusions. Robinsons also makes comments in ref. to Heterozygous versus homozygous effects being different,  in discussion of  I/- (see quote panel 20 above) and in reference to Abyssinian pattern intensity(Ta/- .Mcmc) of (leg) markings on P 137. We will try to do some more (golden tabby/Burmese)breedings to sort this out.
Re:   polygenics and levels of expression. We believe that this comment is an often used euphemism for "we haven't done our checkerboard work yet".

d) True Smokes are self cats with inhibitor and wide band. Given evidence above as to conclusion b) above we do not agree with the conclusions presented by Ms. Naoni Johnson in her copy written article Para 6 and 7 on the Asian Cat Society web site or GS edit #2 page 21.

e) We  see our  I/-cats  as being on order of silver effect;
    1) non agouti, narrow band.- - 0%, and hope for no lockets
    2) agouti , narrow band --25%,  usually seen on the belly and lower sides -called silver tabbies
    3 ) non agouti wide band --50% , largely an even distribution  - called smokes and
    4) agouti, wide band. --75% ,  again even distribution called shaded, sometimes tipped, or cameo.
Please note:  our numbers are eye apparent approximations,  and not at this time by actual measure.

f) We see the visual amount of silver seen, can be amended by;
    1) the [O] gene, one simply needs look at any silvered tortie to see the level of wash out in the red areas.
    2) long hair [l ] which changes the amount of visual tipping seen.  see Robinsons p127 -8,130 and 165-6,
    3) [cb] sepia, as in the lockets, allowing the I/- to show through and varying the intensity of colour, and
    4) Maltesed pigmentation [d].

g) The Burmese is an ideal cat to do this work with as it has a number of  homozygous recessives.

h) We still see a 10% approx. variability is the silver wide band effect that we can not totally explain away to those genes noted in (f) above. It speaks to the super wide band seen in Christian, Odyseus and  Sunderland's sister seen below in panel 24 and those short hair, ticked cats that are between silver tabby and shaded. In the smoke we see the difference as between Isis and Lucina but in this case it may be due to the sepia. We will discuss O-boy and the "Tippers"below. As of 2002 we have decided to track this characteristic. We call it for want of a better name "super wide band"and use the designator  'swb' . We believe it to be recessive. We do not think it acts independently of Wb, but it may.  Time will tell.

i) Given conclusion f) above and this h) this could account for the confusion and conclusion that Stephens has in her para p 15 on 'Tipping" and possible ticked smokes. We will test that on Isis. It would prove the case but not disprove it. PS  We have had difficulty with the photo Ms Stephens presents on p 59 of the Mau - Black Smoke as being smoke (a non agouti cat) but our Isis also shows some markings. Conclusion, that cat has a black nose so must be smoke, go figure.

j) Our next best supposition as to where this remaining I variability is coming from, is related to the Ta/ta variable expression, mentioned above and in Robinsons p 137, -  -  but as you will see below we have discounted that!!

k) We need to keep photos of all litters. It's all in the record somewhere. It just has to be pulled out. Keep going.

l) We continue to have discomfort around the Dilute modifier -DM gene as outlined on page 141 of Robinsons. We think from what we see that there is a distinct possibility that this is merely the manifestation of I/- and i/i in dilute cats. Using  Occam's razor, it is an elegantly simple explanation. It would be interesting to know P Turner's reasons for suggesting it. If you look at the diagrams Ms. Stephens presents (edit 1) on P 12 of the various colour dot deposition  patterns  not only do the full colour patterns show increasing space between the colour dots but the Maltese patterns show large spaces. What colour is the substrate on the i/i cat verses the I/- cat. It has got to effect what the eye sees. If so, all cats have this caramel/taupe/apricot colour variation, particularly the dilutes/maltesed cats.

m)[may2002] We continue to think the colour substrate, or the actual colour of the hair manufacture is either I,-  silver or i,- golden and that the colour is deposited on it. (Not  a original thought). Other genetics, poly genes if you will, can make the golden darker as in the Abyssinian. It is interesting to note that all goldens seem to have this white under the chin as do Tigers.  I think that Somali Sorrels are actually wide band goldens and may in fact be super wide band cats ie genetically the same as a Chinchilla except golden and highly rofoused. I have spoken to breeders of these cats and can not get an answer.

21)	A long hair black golden ticked boy.  Adjouti, Black, Full [not sepia]Colour, Dense [not maltesed/dilute], not shorthair , normal [not orange]pigmentation , tabby pattern [ not mackeral, or classic,spotted?? and, not wide band. A/-.B/-.C/-.D/-.l/l-.o/y.Ta/-.i/i-.wb/wb  this established from his appearance his mother is Esmerelda his father is Fluffernutter  He has 2 sisters both being shown, one looks like him the other is Ecstacy who is a brown sepia. b/b.cb/cb all else the same.
22)	The boy nearer the camera, Brown Shadow, is  a full expression  sable silver ticked long hair narrow band or in gene talk;  agouti, brown, full colour, dense , long, abby tabby, silver, narrow band. (Of interest is just how much the sepia (cb/cb) washes out the colour on Ecstacy) he is A/-.b/b.C/-.D/-.l/l.o/y.Ta/-.I/-.wb/wb  by appearance and genetically is A/a.b/b.C/cb.D/-.l/l.o/y.Ta/-.I/-.wb/wb He is from Isis who is a/a.B/b-.C/cb.D/-.L/l.o/o.Ta/-.I/i.Wb/wb and Nelson who is A/a .B/b.cb/cb.D/-.l/l.o/y.Ta/-.I/i.Wb/wb Thus both parents must carry narrow band so we have added it to their profiles.
22a	Horizons Minerva born 18 May 01 to Silver Dart (Dart) is a Platinum female Foreign F1 Burmese) and Fluffernutter(An F3 LH Sable Ticked Silver male Burmilla) - F4 Sable Ticked Silver female photo 9/15/01 A/a.B/b.cb/cb.D/d.L/l.o/o.Ta/-.I/i.wb/wb a from her mother b from mother d from mother l from father o and Ta are visible we guess Ta/Ta given robinsondp 137 para 0 i from mother assumed she is narrow band her littermates were 3 selfs, 2 ticked as she is All above is what we said on Minerva originally based on what we saw at the time. This Feb 02 photo, left below, taken when she is 9 months shows her colour as golden. (It s a good representative photo on my screen)  The golden has taken some time to develope. Thus she is i/i vice I/i. This raises three points then ; 1)  both parents carry  golden (we still think Fluffernutter might be golden not silver) 2)  given the photo above in panel 22 is she Sable or full expression Champagne? - - We have checked her paw pads carefully and they are very clearly a dark brown thus she would have to be "sable" or if you will Burmese restricted black. 3) her father has to be Sable as there were no full expression (C/-)kittens in the litter. His colour would be proven. comment ; a multiple recessive platinum Burmese is a good x breeding to prove colours.  Poor quality golden is often hard to distinguish, and you will waver on your decission depending on the light.
Super wide band Silver
23)	An  example of this increased silver effect is Odysseus. His littermates at that time were Isis and a Blue self. He is by appearance A/-.B/-.cb/cb.D/-.L/-.o/y.Ta/-.I/-.Wb/-  he was for the first year seen as Champagne as this picture of oct /01 . He is registered as such. He has since darkened and is clearly sable. An interesting effect of the I?? We think his kittens are doing the same. He is from  B.B shorthaired Champagne Ticked Tabby Burmilla female A/a.b/b.cb/cb.D/-.L/l.o/y.Ta/-.i/i.wb/wb  and  Daedalous (Black Shaded Silver SH Burmilla male F2) A/a.B/b.C/cb.D/-.L/l.o/y.Ta/ta.I/i.Wb/wb and genetically he is A/-.B/b.cb/cb.D/d.L/L?.o/y.Ta?.I/i.W/wb Ta? we can not be sure what he is.
24)	A brother and sister. Horizons Sunderland,  at 5 weeks, left top as a kitten, is a sable burmese restriction/'Sepia' Burmilla. It is expected that his colour will darken and the lines on his forehead and tail rings will disappear. He is our first LH self, the cat we call the longhair Burmese. The sepia effect can be seen more easily on a longhhair, ie on his chest. He is a/a.B/-.cb/cb.D/-.l/l-.o/y.Ta/-.i/i.wb/wb (whoops see below) This established from his appearance. The tabby markings seen,  ie tail markings, suggest other than Ta. (ie ta/ta.Mc/-) We make him i/i as he is both sepia and showing no locket (The proof is in the pudding, it will take a year to bake the cake) His sister is a LH Champagne tipped. They are both from two cats neither of which is tipped.  Nelson and A/a .B/b.cb/cb.D/-.l/l.o/y.Ta/-.I/i.Wb/wb this breeding proves Nelson to be I/i we need back up proof and we ?/? have it because Nelson produced a Champagne tortie self with Blue Skies with no lockets and she is i/i (which is likly but not guaranteed) Leading lady A/a .b/b.C/cb.d/d.l/l.O/o.Ta/ta-.I/i-.Wb/wb  The tipped kitten  is by appearance A/- .b/b.cb/cb.d/d.l/l.o/o.Ta/?-.I/-..Wb/- and by genetics A/- .b/b.cb/cb.d/d.l/l.o/o.Ta/?-.I/-.Wb/- So far the theories are OK. Below ,  a photo of the tipped kitten Lady Hamilton at 8 months . of interest  - - it is said that all Chinchilla kittens are not tipped when young, and lady Ham was.
24a) An aside on colour. 4 months later We give you this, to illustrate the difficulty (discussed in panel 3) in defining colour is some cats. Sunderland, has departed the cattery to his own home and we miss him. Sunderland now "?? " at home - what a great photo Gary!	These are 3 photos of Sunderland taken when he was 5 months. As you can see he is very clearly not a self cat. Neither is he sable. He is a full expression champagne silver smoke wide band  and as such is: a/a.b/b.C/cb.D/-.l/l-.o/y.Ta/-.I/-.Wb/- (which is genetically possible) The "smoke" took some time to develope  and was fairly clear at 4 months. The colour was difficult as he does appear to be pointed, but if you look at a number of our sable smokes they tend to be very close to a grey colour and not as brown as is seen in the sable Burmese. A view of panel 22 also helps. The defining point is the colour of the paw pads. Dark pink. We still wonder about the "smoke". perhaps he is wide band, golden    ( ???)  and that is why is is so faint.
25) continuing with our discussion on silver	Leda who is from  odysseus   A/-.B/b.cb/cb.D/d.L/L?.o/y.Ta?.I/i.Wb/wb and rumena  A/-.B/b.cb/cb.D/d.L/-.o/o.Ta/-.I/i.Wb/wb and is A/-.B/-.cb/cb.D/-.L/-.o/o.Ta?.I/-.Wb/- Ta? not visible  The question is why were all wide band kittens born at F1 to Christian less silvered than he was (see panel 20). Is that an indicator of recessive. If the explanation is put off to shorthair, then why Odyseus. Sepia doesn't explain everything as Christian didn't have that. What do these cats  O-boy, above, kitten above and Leda and Hebe, have in common with  Christian to get superwide band / tipping.   ??  "Basically the genotype of the chinchilla..(A/-.D/-.I/-.Mc/- or mc/mc).." Robinsons p165  and "Expression of the Abyssisian pattern may manifest itself in two ways: - as a week striping on the legs and rings on the tail for the heterozygote Ta/ta .Mc/- or mcmc - as the absence or reduction of these markings for the homozygote Ta/Ta .Mc/- or mc/mc" on page 137.  In short. Ta/Ta cats have less colour. Could tipped Persians be Ta/Ta cats??  If, as Robinsons says, all Chinchillas are mackerel tabbies then they must be ta/ta,  given the tabby genetics on P 136-137. Robinsons p 172 "It is of interest that most, if not all, Burmese have the genotype for Abyssinian pattern,...". That is they are Ta/Ta, or low colour/striping. (We know from plate 7and 8 not all and that there is an Sp in the works.) All  F1 Burmillas would be heterzygous for Ta and have increased marking. Latter generations could be Ta/Ta. We therefore suppose all true "supertips" are Ta/Ta,  GReat idea but it doesn't explain Christian 'cause we already said he was a mackeral tabby. AND  Christian produced a spotted!! he has to be ta/ta.   We wonder what the difference in colour/pattern would be in a "Ta/ta Burmese" to a Ta/Ta Burmese.  (See plate 32) Everything we see in does not agree or disagree with the Robinsons statement above re differences between homo/heterzygous Ta cats. We suggest something else is going on. We are thinking that there are possibly 2 wide band genes, one a dominant and one a recessive that will give this superwide band  when combined!!  Or is it that there is a difference between hetero and homozygous wide band?? We know this can not be the case as her father is heterzygous wb. Comments anyone? We now think that there may be a recessive super wide band gene  (swb/swb is what we will call it). We will try to track it. It my be somethig that only operates with Wb -  but we shall see.
26)	This is Leda's littermate sister, a blue, abby-ticked, narrow band. Her brother was a Champagne abby-ticked, golden narrow band. Her other brother looked like her. This information does much to prove the backgroung of the parents Odysseus and Runina. It also gives us comfort with our suppositions so far.  Most important we now can look at breeings with O-boy and know clearly that he carries recessives. He's a prover. He is:  A/-.B/b.cb/cb.D/d.L/L?.o/y.Ta?.I/i.W/wb,  and Rumena   is   A/-.B/b.cb/cb.D/d.L/-.o/o.Ta/-.I/i.Wb/wb This girl is A/-.B/-.cb/cb.d/d.L/-.o/o.Ta/-.I/-.wb/wb. What is clear here, is that until a cat is bred, one can not begin to know what it's genetics possibilities might be. IF a colour/pattern is missidentified it is difficult  to  correct within the rules as they presently exist. Especially if this proving happens 2-3 generations downstream from the show life. This girl is now a breeding cat in Denmark.
27)	This is Hebe.  She is a shaded,(Sable tipped silver) that is a agouti wide band. She appears to have less colour than most shaded cats but is not tipped. She does have double fur, our term for a thicker than usual undercoat. We need to get the microscope to sort this out. Another of those confusing /polygenic effects mentioned in conclusions (f).  She is  A/a.B/-.cb/cb.D/d.L/l.o/o.Ta/-.I/-.Wb/wb  a from father d from father l from father wb from father Later!
28	This girl on the left is a young sable smoke female from Piper a Champagne Burmese and Pluvius a Sable Shaded Silver Burmilla. This litter did much to proove the genetics of Pluvius but is this girl who is interesting. Young smokes are often difficult to identify but as the reader  can see it is in the neck area that the smoking first becomes apparent. Thus she is in all colour genetics similar to the Burmese with the one exception being that she is Wide band (Wb/-).
29 . the litter, and the litter minus the smoke .  the champagne smoke and the sable shaded the Champagne shaded (s)	Burmilla kittens born Nov 21 2003 F + Leda (SH Champagne Tipped Silver f3 Burmilla) who is  A/-.B/-.cb/cb.D/-.L/-.o/o.Ta?.I/-.Wb/- and swb/swb Ta? not visible  and  Mustang (Sable European F+ Burmese) f+ Burmilla 1 sable shaded silver female 2 champagne shaded silver females 1 champagne shaded silver male 1 champagne smoke female note   none of kittens swb Lola was kept for breeding
30  . . Burmilla Kittens born Nov 23 2003 F+	Tempest (sable tortie female F2 Foreign Burmese) x Pluvius  (  SH sable shaded male   F + Burmilla) lh carrier = F + Burmillas 1 cameo male 1 sable smoke male 1 sable  male 1 sable smoke female The smoking is distinguished by the lighter colour around the neck and will increase somewhat as the cats ages. The non smoke boy is on the right in the third photo and is genetically identical to a Burmese by way of coat colour . photos jan 10 04
31 A remarkable boy who's picture does not do him justice.	COLOURS they will fool you! 10/05 Horizons Claudius We orginally had him as silver shaded, he is clearly now neither silver or shaded. (Blue  golden)F3 Burmila male born May 18 2004 to Maine Jellett ( Platinum European  Burmese) X Far Horizon (SH Cream Shaded Silver  F2 Burmilla) (european) - Claudius is very "narrow band" to the point that his back is one solid colour and it is only on his tail and sides when exposed that you can see the ticking. He is a fine illustration of the colour change that the golden substrate gives to the blue resulting in that gun metal shading that is called Caramel. He is A/-.B/-.cb/cb.d/d.L/-.o/o.Ta/-.i/i.wb/wb he is abby tabby to the point there is no barring we can see Feb 07 Wide Band Golden We have been confounded by this boy and his genetics for some time - given the recent breeding of his daughter with Findus commented on below we now conclude this boy is wide band and additionally superwide band that is Wb/-, swb/swb. Is father is certainly not wide band as he would have been a cameo, but he is also not a usual self. We therfor think he is wb/wb swbswb. he bred his mother that girl on the left is in fact a platinum golden narrow band ticked abbytabby The golden really stands out and at first she was mistaken for champagne. It is the long hair shafts on the ridge of the tail and the paw pads that define the colour. litter with Rumina We are beginning to think that golden / inhibitor plays a larger role in the variable amount of ticking , wide band / narrow band that we see. We have yet to see a golden smoke. Claudius has a very wide stripe down his back that is unusual (To the point of viewed from above there is no ticked areas to be seen) and additionally we shows no baring on his fore legs
32	Barring  10/05 Dauntless is a European Burmese  of good pedigree. He is barred. His dam was not as we saw her and she was a cream,  the sire, who we have not seen, is from Australia (as is the dam) and is  chocolate and the baring may have been unnoticed?? see pedigree  Robinsons comments on this edition 4 page 137 2nd para. They suggest that he would be Ta/ta. His breeding to Spitfire and unbarred cream produced the litter seen below. European Burmese Kittens born May 31 05 provided 3 cream females and 2 cream males. 3 of the kittens were barred and 2 were not. We take this a reasonable proof of the supposition advanced by Robinsons. we will continue to monitor
33	Ticking 11/05 Burmilla kittens born April 12 05 Niobe (SH Sable Tortie Shaded silver F3 Burmilla) x Dauntless  a (Cream European Burmese male)= F+ Burmillas    shown above two brothers The question is are we looking at a banding difference due to wb or not    - - -or to a colour reduction of the I gene
34 on the left, Lavina Lavina as an adult	More on golden 11/05 F4 Burmilla kittens born Feb 23 05 Maine Jellett ( Platinum European  Burmese) X Claudius (blue shaded silver )F3 Burmila male  -  2 Platinum golden ticked Females see lavina litter 1  Platinum Self Female 1 golden ticked caramel (Blue on gold) like her sire comment the golden fools you in the platinum and you see champagne  ??  do not believe this can be wide band. The platinum is identified most clearly along the top of the tail. Further notes 4/04/07 Lavina who is discussed below with her litter (with Findus) is one of the two platinum girls in this litter view. Maine is a platinum E Burmese. Claudius is a blue shaded silver. Main is the mother of Claudius. The wide banding is evident in his sire Far Horizon.   Lavina  is very definitely wide band. Both cats (Maine and Claudius)must carry a recessive, neither appear to be wide band. There can be no other conclusion that I can think of  other than a clearly indicated recessive response, and I believe we can now take it that our suppositions with regard to "swb" as correct. What is of interest is that it has taken  so long to figure that out!!

10/20/06
Genetics of b1

I came across a great genetic resource  called Feline Color Genetics Links  and while reading links,  saw a good deal of talk about the b1 gene.  I "put out" questions as to origin and was  told "Robinson' s".  News to me so,  I looked it up and there it was on Page 139 (and page 158). Got to confess  - -it went right by me originally - - , and I thought I had that book down fairly well.

It was Colin Manning of Breeders Assistant Customer Service (UK) who identified the B1 source and also said " Isn't the 'Berrington Gene' just silver by another name?" and

and the following from Renee Weinberger

"So, here's the deal, I have four kittens (Burmese) .... 2 blues 2 platinums ... So, I sent in the DNA from
the prettiest of the 2 blues to UC-davis and it came back platinum.  Other Burmese breeders insist that the "Blue" color that I'm
looking at is a light blue.  But I know now that it is in fact a dark platinum. ...Do you believe it's a possibility that the lighter
platinums are b/bl dd instead of b/b dd.  (I could send in the dna to test this and... am tempted to.)?   The darker sibling was bb by genetic test. ...Maybe heterozygosity for cinnamon would give in between lightened colors: maybe a B/bl would be lighter than a B/b sable.  Maybe b/b1 are the lightest champagnes, and B/bl would give light blues?  What are your thoughts on the cinnamon gene possibility??"

Me,  - -  I up and shot off my mouth that cinnamon does not exist in the Burmese and technically it doesn't - - - But???

We have said we do not think Dm is valid.  see Robinsons Page 141 and above
We agree with Colin re Berrington and suggest it is another I/ versus i/i effect as is Dm.
We thought b1 was another one of these situations (I vs ii) but Robinsons makes a pretty good case for b1 and says Black is a round pigment granule,  b is a oval granule and b1 is a rod shaped granule. They site (Ozeki,1995) [ sort off] and one would assume all this has been looked by microscope as they site in other sections. Stephens also talks about granule shape, illustrates same, but does not identify "b1".
Both texts identify the associated colours Black(B) , Brown (b), and Cinnamon(b1), with b1 (Robinsons) being recessive to b which is recessive to B. There is complete dominance i.e.. a b/b1 cat has the phenotype of the [is equal in appearance to a] b/b cat.
Robinsions then "waffles". They say "brown alleles [band b1] have no effect  on yellow (Phaeomalanin)  [ the O/red cat].. or if they do, they seem to...produce.. a brighter shade".

Robinsons has two chapters that discuss color genetics  Chapter 9 Color inheritance, which we have quoted above  and Chapter 10 Genetics of color variation and breeds.
It seems that these two sections were written by different people and they did not talk to each other. However on color they seem somewhat in unison. There is a wealth of information but it has not been integrated and as such presents great difficulty.

The question proposed "are the light color Burmese we see due to b1"
First Robinsons is clear, dominance is complete so only the b1/b1 could be identified.
The question then  is:  Does b1 exist in the breed pool, and if so then what?
It is fairly common knowledge that there are two kinds of dilutes  and they are often talked about as the "powder coats".
Problem is,   - - we have identified some of these "powder coats" as being I/- cats (vs i/i) cats.
So that would make at least two factors delivering the "Powder coat."
We also know that wide band (Wb)  and what we call super wide band (swb/swb) genes have an effect on I.  Wb will deliver a smoke when associated with I/-. [Please note we do not agree with Chapter 10's author on what a smoke is or the effect of Wide band and feel our conclusions are well proven.] We are not sure what these genes are doing in i/i but they could well effect what the eye might see in a self cat, especially the lighter colored varieties. Given they are generally unseen and therefor not selected they could well be random in the population - hence the identification of a  golden (red) (under)coat is a new born sepia cat.

At present we have no clear means of identifying a b1 cat in the Burmese (or Burmilla breed) pool (short of DNA testing?) or identifying by name i.e. not in the standard.  We also note it is significant that Robinsons on Page 158 says the gene is "most commonly found in the agouti form".
Also if we could identify it, we should not call it Cinnamon or Fawn as that descriptor is taken??see comments above.
We should all be very clear that the cats identified out of New Zealand as Cinnamon Burmese are very likely not genetic cinnamon  but  genetic Brown as defined above. This Full color (C) was imported into the breed when they allowed the registration of silver. see The Cranreuch Silver Burmese breeding Program In N Z.

11/16/06
Genetics  of wide band the litter of Lavina  and Findus

Lavina and Findus
at 1 week old

The kittens of summer 06 at 12 weeks
 -In the right hand photo -  bottom front (red), middle and top (torties) are Burmese along with the red boy on the right top corner.
The bottom left corner,(silver shaded posterior) the top left (sable smoke) , and the bottom right (champagne golden ticked) are Burmilla (Karma) kittens [See photo below]. All else are Burmillas from  Lavina.
1 Champagne smoke M  -  center right  head to head with the tortie  - LH photo
1 Champagne tipped silver M  - - LH photo Lh center below the red boy
1 Sable tipped silver M   - -   top right in LH photo
1 Champagne Golden Shaded M 
1 Champagne Golden Shaded F   - - the two in the center bottom LH photo between the champagne tortie and the sable smoke
1 Champagne Golden Ticked F  RH photo center bottom on top of the red boy

photo at 3 days

April 22 2007
at 6 weeeks

(return to index page )
The following pages show some of the breeding lines as they have developed.

• go to Mercury page.
• go to Meerani's Page

go to Christian's's Page