Genetics 3 page   A Unified View of Silver"
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responses and illustrative material follow the article on this page below

introductory email

Hello to you all.


For those of you not interested in cat genetics - you need read no farther.

For all others,   attached you will find a word/pdf document that proposes: -
A different view of silver genetics, (yes we say there is silver in some Burmese);
An explanation of "smoking
A source of the  Dilution modifier effect, Barrington, and Lockets in Burmese.


Genetics is binary math. theory.
i.e. Cat is Black or Brown, Sepia or not, dilute or not - outcomes 2x2x2=8
I suggest it starts with Mendels laws, deals with Biochemistry and concludes with DNA analysis.
For us as breeders we are interested in predictable outcomes.(Mendel) We breed two cats and the theory should deliver and match the outcomes.
The theory in this case doesn't. Once questioned- and answered(?), the solution has a cascading effect.

If the theory suits --it lives, if not,  it dies.

If our proposal provides a better match to your breeding outcomes , or;
If you have another textual reference that provides additional information, or;
A questionable breeding outcome that you can document with pedigrees and photos, or;
A DNA test result delivering an unexpected silver or golden finding;
That sheds light on the issue, then we would love to hear from you.

For Burmilla breeders:

The original breed protocol calls for breeding back to the Burmese in the F2 generation. 
The allowed outcross provides a return to the Burmese  in order to preserve the Burmese character.
The mathematics of retaining that  so striking F1 Shaded Silver, in the F2 generation, are in the order of 12%. Very tough indeed.
Breeding an F1 to an F1  will deliver in the order of 30% shaded silver.
As a result, many breeders do not return, if ever, to the Burmese. This risks the Burmese character.
Understanding the genetics as outlined, and having a Breed Standard that allows use of the Golden, and "smoke" cats in the F3 generation to deliver the Shaded silver, reduces significantly the disparity between the possible outcomes and ensures the Burmese character and temperament.

For your consideration.
Thanks.


Alternate titles for this document could be...
"What is a smoke?” "Is wide band for real?", "Does dilution modifier [Dm] exist?”,” What is Caramel" or "Lockets - where do they come from?"

Prior to getting started I present the following points:
1) I suspect, Burmese breeders have participated at an above average level in genetic testing and these results may have some answers to a question I will pose.
2) Any genetic discussion is complex. In order to be brief I will reference Horizons web site (http://www.igs.net/~kiddbatt/DOCS/pages/sells2.html) for supporting documents and photos.
3) Horizons is a Canadian Cattery, CCA and CFA registered, which breeds European Burmese and the Burmilla.
4) In Canada a cat of Burmese and Chinchilla Persian ancestry is classified as a Burmilla. There is no differentiation into Asian, Tiffanie, and Silver – only, all are Burmillas. They are codified as to color, pattern, and hair length.
5) In color discussion I will use the North American terminology but follow with the genetic code [is square brackets].
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Some years ago one of our first Burmilla foundation breedings was of a Cream Burmese to a Chinchilla Persian who was known to be a golden carrier i.e. he was heterozygous for silver [I/i]. Normal distribution of this 7-kitten litter should have shown half to be golden [i/i]. They were not. Later her cream brother was bred to a golden, ticked Burmilla. He produced a silver kitten. (For parents and kittens see web site. #10 and #11)

Over the years we have continued to see this "unexplainable" result of a 'golden' bred to a Burmese (who is supposed to be golden) delivering silver. In fact it is to the point where we can predict this possibility.

Most folks hereabouts who breed European Burmese are familiar with the term "Powder Coats". It is the descriptor for those cats that are lighter in color as against the term "high color" for those that are darker. One often sees this in the show ring in a variety of solid [a/a] cats i.e. the powder creams and the powder lilacs [b/b, d/d] or powder Blues [B/-, dd].   I once asked a Persian breeder in a CFA show what that was and what she thought of it. She was aware of the term and it's meaning, but had no explanation other than some judges liked it.

Both of the cream cats mentioned in the two breedings above were 'powder coat' Burmese. We have seen and predicted this outcome in "clear coated"(without barring) Red Burmese, solid, light champagne Burmillas [a/a, b/b, D/-] and solid Black Burmillas [a/a, B/-, D/-]. See web site. #9More on )

Our fellow breeders have questioned us on these breeding outcomes:
1) “Are you sure of the parentage?”
We are. Our males are caged.
2) “The kittens are not silver.”
That is a comment of some interest as there are cats that are clearly silver and those that are clearly golden, and there are the "tweenies"(if you allow me). We have commented on that discussion on the web site #2, and you can look at the photos. The current literature is clear; a cat that is not clearly golden is silver.
3) “Burmese are not silver where did it come from?”
Good question. There is no basic difference between a self Sable Burmese and a self Sable Burmilla, and this phenomenon of a self producing a silver when bred to a clearly golden is well documented by Pedersen page 79 Para 2 where he says "there are several cases on record of black cats breeding as smokes", and Robinson's page 142 Para 1....”resulting in occasional cats with no visible white undercoats that nonetheless breed as smokes”.  Stephens comment is on Page 21 and says 'there is still very much that we do not understand about silver or the gene(s)that cause a solid-colored cat to be smoked.”

Silver genetics have historically presented issues. Most genetics deals with genes at single location in a dominant/recessive format. It is not clear within the early literature that this is the case. However the result is the same and Stephens deals with it as such. Thus cats are referred to as silver [I/-] or golden [i/i] and there is no hint that this piece of genetics is hooked up with any other, in other words  -it acts independently.

Given that, the ONLY logical conclusion that can be taken from the breeding outcomes outlined above is that:

Just as Agouti [A/-] cats are both silver and golden so are non agouti [a/a] cats and that this piece of genetics is Hypostatic in the [aa] cats. Hypostatic means unseen thus, - just as the patterns are unseen (somewhat) in the solid [a/a] cat so is the golden and silver.
Epistasis 2. A form of gene interaction whereby one gene masks or interferes with the phenotypic expression of one or more genes at another loci; the gene whose phenotype is expressed is said to be epistatic while the gene or genes whose phenotype ia altered or supressed is said to be hypostatic. Stedmans medical dictionary 24 edit.

That was not the conclusion reached within Pedersen, nor is it the general understanding of the cat fancy. Why??

The proof of this speculation would be in the DNA testing of Dr L Lyons if she were to test some Burmese as silver not golden.

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There are 4 documents we reference: see Amazon for purchase..
1) Feline Husbandry by Neils C Pedersen dated 1991-.. 2 of the authors Roy Robinson Geneticist of the UK, and Joan Wastlhuber CFA all breed judge and Pres. Winn foundation.
2) Robinson’s Genetics for cat breeders and Veterinarians -dated 1999 signed off by authors in 1998.  This is the 4th edition of the same Roy Robinson noted above - authors Carolyn Vella ACFA judge, Lorraine Shelton a California based geneticist, John McGonagle, ACFA judge, and Terry Stanglein VDM.
3) Legacy of the Cat dated 1999 second edition by Gloria Stephens an Allbreed TICA judge with 3 degrees, she refers to her mentor Don Shaw ACFA  Allbreed judge.
4) Genetics of the Shaded American Shorthair an article held on the web site #8.  By Carol W. Johnson, DVM, PhD  date sometime before1999??

The text in Pedersen runs from pages 67--82 and provides references at the end. The text in Robinson's is mostly contained in Chapters 9 'Color inheritance' and 10 'Genetics of color variation and breeds' and runs from page 134-184. Stephens text on colors and patterns is found on pages 15-22.

Notwithstanding the dates of publication, we see Pedersen as the oldest document, Robinson's update, at about 10 years later and somewhat burdened by it's history, the Johnson article as preceding the Robinson update by about a year and the Stephens text about a year or two so later than Robinson's.

There is little question all these folks knew each other and talked as can be seen from the credits. I have one email from Ms. Stephens in which she details discussions with Robinson, Peterson (SP) Pfluger, and Don Shaw in  "New York years ago".

If one reviews these 4 texts there is a decided progression in the understanding of the genetics of abby tabby s [Ta/-] Mackerel tabbies [ta/ta], Mc/-] and Classic [ta/ta, mc/mc]. Equally there is a progression in the understanding of Wide band [Wb/-] from nothing noted in Pedersen, to hypothesized in Robinson's, to genetic distribution noted in Stephens. Pedersen sees all smokes as silver, and offers no rational, for the varying amounts of silver in the agouti cat.

Thus we see an old and flawed genetic understanding that continues to fail to explain breeding outcomes.
(It is worth noting that at the time the Internet was not in wide use and digital photography did not exist.)

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If then a solid self [aa] cat can be silver then the question must be "What is the genetic/s source of the 'smoke effect'”. 
Wide band genetics is 'new' as noted above. The Chinchilla Persian is considered to be an example of a cat with these genetics and the Chinchilla is a foundation breed for the Burmilla. It must come from the Chinchilla.
 
We suggest  'Wide band’ [Wb/- is a logical choice.  That is to say that any self /solid cat [aa] that is also wide-band  [Wb/-] is a "smoke" and smokes can be silver or golden in genetic make-up. 
We will henceforth use the term "smoke" when referring to self/solid/non-agouti wide-band [a/a...Wb/-]. A Burmese would then be a self/solid/non-agouti "narrowband" [a/a,   wb/wb].



First generation Burmillas are remarkable in their uniformity of coat and pattern (assuming homozygous silver in the Chin. and no 'O' genetics in the Burmese). {See web site #7}. They are agouti with the brick color nose, black, shaded silver. The F1 offspring are notably not 'ticked' cats and they are not 'tipped'.
Aside note: In the case of an F1 cat being golden (the Chinchilla was heterozygous silver [I/-]) this wide band cat can be more difficult to clearly identify from the recessive “narrow band”.

Breeders, standards, and all textual discussions denote 3 levels of pattern/color in most breeds. Different cat fancies often provide percentage numbers and means of demarcation but generally ticked, shaded, and tipped are the 3 designations. All of these above noted F1 breedings are shaded, none are tipped.

There are numerous pictures of this cat in the Cat Press as (most often) these texts were published as the breed was emerging. The prevailing public vision of the cat is this F1 cat. (There are numerous examples on our web site). It is in the second-generation breeding wherein one breeds back to the Burmese (F1 X Burmese) that we see ticked silvers (narrowband silver) among other variations. We see this as proving the wide band genetics.

However, you will note the FI cats are not tipped (that is not to say never, but we have not seen it). We do however get tipped cats further on down the line, irregularly. The only rational for this result using conventional 'Mendellian' genetics is a dominant acting with a recessive. The mathematics of that is the same as breeding a sable X platinum (Burmese) in second generation. Therefore wide band is dominant, the second gene for tipping is recessive. A Chinchilla is then [Wb/-, swb/swb]

We have used the swb as a short form for super wide-band to define 'Tipping'. It is totally of our making as T was used and we are not sure of the relationship that 'Tipping' plays with wide band. It is somewhat ridiculous on purpose.

There are three reasons we are very comfortable with our understand of 'tipping' genetics and take it as a given.
1) It matches into and defines the three designations (ticked, shaded and tipped) noted above.
2) It conforms to Mendel's genetics. (See wickipedia for more)
3) Our results match exactly the classifications and outcomes of Carol W. Johnson in her Genetics of the Shaded American Shorthair an article held on the web site #8, with regard to these characteristics.

Dr. Johnson's article is interesting. Its publication timing as similar to Robinson's 4th, she comments on having talked to Lorraine Sheldon (sp) and Heather Lorimar see my tile 64 (I have broken down her article into tiles (( in table)) and numbered each Para. for ref. purposes).  In tile 47 she talks about wide banding, and it's origins.

I do not understand why she did not take the next step and run the genetics, she certainly had the capability. She instead goes of into high speculation of "Chaos" and "Confusion", her words (tile 46). I have run her article along with my comments - a link is provided to her web site.

So far then we have taken a group of cats defined as silver and have broken them down genetically into wide band and tipped. Just to be clear, all can be both golden and silver. (A very fine lilac tipped golden is pictured on the web site.)
And
We have not stepped outside existing texts except in the case of tipping, and suggest that is a very basic genetic conclusion, confirmed by independent observation.

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The only issue for most will be the "Golden Smoke" and it's identification. For that I will give you a quote from a Gloria Stephens email about the above noted New York meeting: -
"One of the things we all had to agree on was... the band..we all agreed that the band referred to the yellow band. ....   
the recessive wb/wb would have no effect on a solid colored cat as the Agouti Peptide is not active. Without it, there can be no yellow band. Also a eumelanin colored cat can not have phaeomelanin,  therefore there can be no banding." 
IF I understand this correctly then there would be no identifiable golden/yellow in the self/solid/non agouti “smoke” [a/a] and [Wb/-] cat. ???



Never-the -less the 'Smoke" /non agouti wide band cat [a/a...Wb/-], in mathematical terms must then come in the following variables
I/-,..swb/swb
silver and tipped  very much like a A/- ,shaded (being differentiated by the absence of the brick nose)  say  75% silver.
I/-,.. Swb/- 
silver   not tipped
about 50% silver lots of color see silver when walking
i/i,...swb/swb golden and tipped undercoat tends toward gray     ---seen as a poor quality smoke , < 25% uncolored
i/i,  Swb/- 
golden and not tipped
ditto above  - --  as we say we are not sure of the relationship of tipping/wide band and their dependence.

Other factors will play on these demarcations including dilution [dd] and pointing/sepia [cb/cb].
Genetics prooving is relatively easy when dealing with recessives. It becomes more difficult with dominants to configure the isolation breeding that would prove the hypothesis. Perhaps an agouti /tipped /golden breeding to a Burmese to deliver a “smoked variant” as suggested below would be sufficient. 
We feel reasonably confident, of what we are seeing, but our selection is small, as Burmilla breeders do not find this golden variation desirable at this time.

The proof of this speculation would be in the DNA testing of Dr L. Lyons, - if she were to test  "Poor quality Smokes" as golden not silver.

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Dm -- dilution modifier is a gene suggested by Patricia Turner in the UK. It gets a one Para. statement on page 70 in Pedersen based on a personal communication in 1986. It is commented on in Robinson's and I have quoted that section on the web site #6. Stephens makes no comment.

This "proposed" gene has a following on the Internet, and we understand Dr. Lyons is looking into it.

Fundamentally the definition is - - dilute cats [d/d] come in a light and dark version and the gene modifies the d/d cat to "lighten the color and provide a brownish cast". A brownish cast blue is "Caramel". Lilac is modified to Taupe (Taupe by Oxford dictionary is "Gray with Brownish or other tinge") and Cream is modified to Apricot. corrected from red

This comment from both supporting texts causes me a great deal of cognitive dissonance, as any reader of the genetic pages on the Horizons web site will note, for on a scale of light to dark colors, brown is dark.
Most photos providing examples of Caramel show a ticked golden cat [A/-..i/i, wb/wb]. See web site #5 and check it out on the Internet. I suggest that dissonance is not just mine....

GCCF standards (for the Burmilla thus presumably all their cats) made no differentiation between the Full expression blue, the Burmese blue, the full expression lilac, and Burmese lilac, and the Dm of each. They are all called Caramel. We have charted that on the web site #13. One has to wonder why these folks chose not to see a full expression blue as being different from a Burmese blue and yet chose to differentiate this obscure effect in such a slip-shod manner.
As this standard now stands there are 4 versions of lilac and 4 versions of blue.
The Dm/- versions are called light and dominant - - (so is silver light and dominant).
There was a dispute and a lack of proof reading in the text. See web site #2corrected
This concept was based on an old understanding that all solid /self cats were golden.
We note with interest that in the PDF article presented in support of this effect dates  it back to a Siamese and Chinchilla Persian breeding. (Bottom of web site section#5)

We see Dm as an old, failed, concept and a gene that does not exist. Caramel by definition is confused for it cannot be both lilac and blue based. It needs to be clearly defined or abandoned.

We suggest that we are looking at, based on our breedings with the "Powder coated Burmese", and our ability to predict outcomes, that this genetic material is in reality the gold and silver in the background. So, as we have said, gold/silver is epistatic.hypostatic in a solid/non agouti cat but not completely. Thus the lighter the cat is, the more likely we will be able to detect the background gold/silver genetics.

We believe that the Barrington gene (web site #3) is not that at all, but again the silver in the background of a Burmese. This again is based upon a breeding outcome.
We see this effect as similar to what one sees at the zoo when looking at a Panther.  In bright sunlight and in reflection we can see the underlying patterns and colors.

We therefore agree with the effect being commented upon within the Dm concept. We agree that it exists and take support from that. We disagree with the source. We feel that from a breed point of view the standard must take into account the full measure of the genetics at play and the Fancy’s concept as a whole.

We note Robinson's P 157 Color variations, The Selfs.

The proof of this speculation would be in the DNA testing of Dr L. Lyons, - however until there is some clear understanding of what a caramel is, I think that may be difficult. I have presented two sisters on the web site #1.  Which is Caramel??
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Questions posed

“Burmese are by definition non-silver, non-agouti -  where do you suggest the inhibitor gene would be coming from in the Burmese breed?  It would have to have been deliberately introduced,  so could you let us know where and when this happened,  and which cats were involved? “

Answer: The Burmese is not "by definition non silver". Based on the breeding outcomes I have outlined above, Silver has always therein existed, there is no rational presented to suggest otherwise.

It would be my view that the majority of North American Burmese are in fact golden as there is a long history of selected removal of cats with the factors that we see as demonstrating silver in the background. They are
1) The lighter coats in the sable and the Champagne (Barrington)
2) Visible leg barring
3) White hairs and particularly lockets

The North America  European Burmese is a different matter. First, out of deference to the Burmese Breeders very few non-reds are shown. Second, the show preference is again for non barring (i.e. on the legs). The O genetics are much more susceptible to silver and thus it is our understanding that the silver based "powder coats" are less barred/marked, become show winners, and therefore are selected for breeding. We predict a gradual increase in the silver genetics in this European Burmese population.

Early in our Burmilla Program we produced kittens that replicated the chest locket we have seen in Sable Burmese. They are noted on the web site. We suggest that lockets in Burmese are a demonstration of silver and tipping genetics, in the background.

We have one very nice golden tipped girl pictured on the web site #1 who could prove thus supposition if a wiling Sable Burmese, of suitable marking, were to make himself available for fun times....

The proof of this speculation would be in the DNA testing of Dr L. Lyons. In fact, given the genetic testing already undertaken with regard to the head defect and FIP, I suggest there is a large population of Burmese already on record that will have been reviewed for silver /golden.

I am asking to be advised of Burmese confirmed for silver.
I am likewise interested in any cat seen as a “smoke” that tested golden.
end


The material below is posted as additional illustrative material to our discussion paper titled " mailed   mid Feb 2010. A Copy is included below. A PDF. of the mailed version is linked.
We will post responses on this web site with our answers. Emails will be posted with owners permission. Any email posted to a group will be considered as public information. Otherwise subjects will be grouped, quoted, and responded to without identifying the author.  We will correct the Copy above for any identified errors and make note.

Please Note we make our points in mixed source text in dark red text.

We have received the comment that the 14 links below are "a bit everywhere" We agree , they are. They are intended to be part of the written text as "call outs" and are not in a sequence order . 


1   Two sisters , one golden one silver.  Which is caramel   ----cast your vote---- on this page
2)  Golden or silver from the GCCF?   plus Gloria Stephens quote on same   and our comments ----on this page
3)  Barrington Don Shaw  old stuff     --on this page
4)  Comment by Tonya Marsh on the above  ---on this page
5)  DM articles held on this site forwarded with comment by LMB  -
6)  Robinson's on DM  a direct copy of P 141  - - -on this page
7)  Genetic analysis of Burmilla breeding  - -another way to approach complex genetics outcomes  - - -on this page
8)  Genetics of the shaded American Shorthair By Carol W. Johnson, DVM, PhD 1999?? ----  off page  to the genetics page
9)  More on what is a smoke  details of a Golden ticked breeding to a Black cat  - clearly not silver. and the silver outcome ----off page  to the genetics page
10  Angel Christian litter ------off page  to the genetics page
11) Silver in Burmese  the reader will note some of the silver spotted cats----off page  to the genetics page
12) genetic table explanation of each genetic trait - this is as we see it - if the reader wishes to follow this discussion it may be helpful to print this table and keep it side for reference.  ----on this page
13) a review of the GCCF standard with regard to caramel  ---- on this page
14) a smoke /golden breeding-----on this page


other material
ongoing discussion and response
burmese chat group response
a solid to tipped golden breeding with a silver Burmilla outcome
a burmilla to burmilla breeding 2 Burmilla breedings  1 produces a missidentified smoke,  with a genetic breakdown.


1
2 sisters , one golden one silver   one blue one lilac  - which is caramel


 

 the linked photo is to a larger scale image


The girl on the left is Lilac golden tipped Burmilla  her sister is a Blue silver shaded Burmilla. it is this golden girl we would like to breed to   a sable Burmese with a locket.
Re the silver , yes we see the silver girl as tarnished, but silver never-the-less for as she is different from her sister who is clearly golden. Then she must be silver as noted in the textual discussion.

2
Golden?? Below are the comments of the photographer / breeder Naomi Johnson of the cat in question.  You be the judge - I do not agree...


 "I have attached the photo again for those who haven't seen it. This is Ch xx Calamondin,  born in my first asian litter March 1993 -  he became the first ever Asian to attain a title in GCCF -  he was a brown Ticked Tabby.  (in the pic of the 5 kittens, he is the one on the right front).  However,  as a young kitten,  he looked silver and was registered as such -  the registration was never queried by a judge until he was 13 months old.   This is what I meant by the burmese gene affecting the undercoat of non-silvers in such a way to make it so pale as to appear silver initially.  This effect is even more marked in dilute colours or red series. ........"


first asian litter

Calamondin

calmodin1994
Calamondin at a later date

Neville
All photos are linked to their original what is some case is a very much larger file if the reader should wish a better view.
re Neville
"I've also attached another pic of Neville (XXX Elderberry) who was not silver,  although you may think it from the pic!  He was a bit of a puzzle - originally registered as full expression lilac ticked,  later changed to burmese colour restriction caramel (blue based) ticked - on the basis of kittens produced.  The first time he was shown,  he was marked "wrong colour" by a judge who insisted he was silver -   she simply would not believe me that he wasn't......  "
and also from another email
"You cannot produce silver kittens from 2 non-silver parents.  If this appears to be happening then either (a) one parent is wrongly registered or (b) you have burmese colour restriction non-silver agouti kittens - the undercoat of these can be so pale as to appear silver,  or at least it does until they are much older.   If I had a pound for the number of times I've seen breeders - and judges - make this mistake,  I'd be quite well off by now :)"


I quote Gloria Stephens  from Legacy of the Cat   page 20 second edition

Inhibitor gene (Silver)
I=inhibitor of pigment
i=no inhibitor of pigment
The inhibitor gene(I/-) sometimes called the silver gene, is responsible for the silver color found on silver tabbies, chinchilla and shaded silvers, and smoke solids.
Silver is the result of a lack of pigment granules in the hair shaft. The pigment is inhibited, so no yellow banding or ground color is present.
The recessive  of the inhibitor gene is (i/i). If (i/i ) is in the genotype pigment will be produced.
The silver gene appears to operate only on the shredded or weakened phaeomelanin granules found on agouti hairs (bands of yellow and ground color), making it possible for red or cream tabbies to be produced. We do not know much about the inhibitor gene. it is possible that it works on any weakened melanin which would help explain  a smoke.

Gloria Stephens also speaks of tarnished silver in the silver tabbies and says "Rufousing polygenes can be so powerful that it may take 4 or 5 generations before the tarnishing disappears".
Robinson's also speak of tarnished silver   see page 164 Silver tabby first para
The silver looks its best when devoid of any suggestion of a tawney or yellow suffusion, known among breeders as "tarnishing". this fault often appears in cross bred slivers indicating how successful breeders have been in eliminating this blemish through selective breeding"

The fundamental disagreement revolves on what is a silver cat.
Within this discussion.
Silver cats are  those that are "not clearly golden ".

A golden cat to be that which is "not clearly silver".  

The "tweenies"(if you allow me) are silver  not golden...- however Dr. Lyons may prove us all wrong!!


Dm cats    the following from Leslie Morgen Blyth
"They have no connection whatsoever with Dm nor inhibitor."

"They" refers to silver genetics

first don shaw on barrington



Comment by Tonya Marsh


see also DM article from ??2006 yearbook

robinsens  Dm p 141 4 edit. date 1999

Dilute modifier - Dm
The dilute modifier is a dominant gene Dm that affects the coat color of dilute (dd) cats. The gene is considered a modifier because it has no effect on dense colored animals. Blue under the influence of this mutation takes on a brownish cast, but does not become as light in tone as the lilac. This color is known as caramel. With dilute chocolate (lilac), the coloration becomes a little paler and is known as taupe. The cream is also paler than usual and has been called apricot (Patricia Turner, personal communication).

The colors and their respective geotypes can be represented as follows:

Black                            aaBBDD ( DM- or dmdm)
Brown (chocolate)      aabbDD (Dm- or dmdm)
Blue                               aaBBdd dmdm
Lilac                              aabbdd dmdm
Caramel                        aaBBddDm-
Taupe                           aabbddDm-
Red                               D-OO (Dm or dm)
Cream                           ddOOdmdm
Apricot                         ddOODm-

the above is an acurate copy of
This para presents continuing difficulties to me  as the reader will note from our genetic notes.
It tells us we have a brownish cast to blue and then tells us that it is lighter  in tone so as to be between blue and lilac.
Brown is a dark colour so I have always viewed a caramel as a darker blue and darker lilac.
The term brownish is exactly the color difference between  of the Gold [ii] and silver [II]

The following was email by LMB in her comments to the above noted para. dated feb 1 2010
"Please note that Pat didn't get to proof read that piece (personal correspondence) and some of it is skewed (such as apricot being paler than cream - the reverse is true) but it absolutely doesn't refer to what you call 'powder coated' colours. (Which I suggest are merely 'polygenic pastels'!!!)  It's about Dilute modifier - the whole lot of it.  The sentence starting 'With dilute brown or lilac' in fact refers to the preceding sentence, which explains a blue based caramel's colour. "
underlining is mine

How can "
apricot being paler than cream - the reverse is true"?? If one follows the genetics all Dm cats must be the pale version of the original.  I do not believe that I am alone in this confusion. Below is a copy of the GCCF color explainations.
The second comment underlined does not square with the preceeding comment nor does it agree witht the genetics in the text below "Caramel=aaBBddDm-"


A review of the GCCF original standard


From gccf the original full written standart with comment
Caramel (Full Expression Color):Cool toned bluish fawn. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen, especially on the head, up the hocks and around the paw pads. The depth and tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based. Nose leather, eye-rims and paw pads: Bluish fawn.
Caramel (Burmese Color Restriction):Cool toned pale fawn graduating to rich honey coloring on the chest and abdomen with lilac overtones. Color may be slightly darker on face, back and tail. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen, especially on the head, up the hocks and around the paw pads. The depth and tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based. Nose leather, eye-rims and paw pads: Pinkish fawn.
Caramel: Cool toned bluish fawn. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen. The tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based. Nose Leather and Paw Pads: Bluish fawn.
golden cats
Caramel (Full Expression Color): Cool toned bluish fawn markings on a ground of cool toned beige. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen, especially on forehead, up the hocks and around the paw pads. The tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based.
Caramel (Burmese Color Restriction): toned pale fawn markings with lilac overtones on a ground of pale beige. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen, especially on forehead, up the hocks and around the paw pads. The tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based.
silver cats
Caramel Silver (Full Expression Color): Cool toned bluish fawn markings on a paler silvery beige ground. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen, especially on forehead, up the hocks and around the paw pads. The tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based.
Caramel Silver (Burmese Color Restriction): Cool toned pale fawn markings with lilac overtones, on a paler silvery beige ground. With maturity a soft metallic sheen may be seen, especially on forehead, up the hocks and around the paw pads. The tone of caramel color may vary depending upon whether it is blue or lilac based.

If one takes their explaination and delivers it out in genetic terms, as charted below, one can easly understand the ongoing confision. And then we further chart this out  to the CFA proposal.

We also note the possible confusion in the articles linked above with cinnamon terminology (the proposed CCA term of frost is from the Gloria Stephens text). In fact CCA just received a request for registration of a GCCF cat classed as caramel - - -comment received
But from reading about the colour and some interesting articles supplied .. by xxx who attended a Siamese seminar which discussed the new colours of Siamese (Cinnamon, Fawn, Caramel, and Apricot),"


GCCF terms
genetics
CCA terminology
latest cfa
 blue full expression (fe)   
[B/- ,C/-, dd,  dmdm] 
indigo
blue
caramel (fe blue) 
[B/- ,C/-, dd, Dm/-] 
proposed to remove
caramel
 blue as burmese restriction
[B/- ,cbcb, dd, dmdm]
blue
blue
caramel (blue)    
[B/-, cbcb, dd, Dm/-] proposed to remove caramel
Lilac  fe      
[bb ,C/-, dd, dmdm]
frost  proposed to accept
lilac
caramel fe lilac
[bb ,C/-, dd, Dm/-]
proposed to remove caramel
lilac as burmese restriction [bb ,cbcb-, dd, dmdm] lilac
lilac
caramel  lilac
[bb ,cbcb-, dd, Dm/-] proposed to remove caramel


This would ascribe the various levels of "bluing" in a cat .                 

Thus for the standard
If you identify a piece of genetics in one place then  are you not obligated to use it all the way ?? , thus the colors Taupe and Apricot are required at least? if you go into the cinnamon genetics [b1/b1]the reader can begin to see where we pass on to the ridiculous
It is however like dancing on the head of a pin, and as I have said, in a proposed standard, avoid the issue in the same manner that the Burmese breeders.   Wherein they not differentiate the various genotypic and phenotypic versions of red.

Many of these colors are very difficult in the tipped cat and are resolved only after breeding.



There is another way to approach genetics.  It is via a checkerboard of possible outcomes.
I have done this in the past in conjunction with Isa and the checkerboard is based on eye color. I have upgrade it with a discussion on the possibilities of fur. Is an Excel spread sheet. F1 analysis.
The problem of functioning such a spread sheet when one deals with this number of variables it that it simply becomes too large. Nine variables plus the variable of eyes, if Isa is correct, becomes 2 to the power of 15
Thus I have approached it in a different way that might be easier for some folks to understand.


Breeding a Chinchilla to a  Lilac Burmese - assumption  cats  are homozygous.  O genetics not included.


Agouti/
self
Black/ brown
full colour/sepia
not dilute/dilute
silver/
gold
long hair.not
abby tabby/
mac clsk
wide/narrow band
tipped/not

F1 Breeding
Chin.
AA
BB
CC
DD
II
ll
tata
WBWB
swbswb

Burmese
aa
bb
cbcb
dd
ii
LL
TATA
wbwb
SWBSWB

cat outcome      F1 Aa
Bb
Ccb
Dd
Ii
Ll
TAta
WBwb
SWBswb
all are same
in plain Language
note  carriers of every recessive characteristic

agouti, black, full colour, not dilute, silver, short hair, abby tabby, wide band, not tipped,       
F2 Breeding
Sable Burmese
aa
BB
cbcb
DD
ii
LL
TATA
wbwb
SWBSWB

    F1 Aa
Bb
Ccb
Dd
Ii
Ll
TAta
WBwb
SWBswb

F2
(f1 to Sable Burmese)
A outcome
A/a
BB,B/b
C/cb
DD,Dd
I/i
LL,L/l
TATA,TA/ta
WB/wb
SWBSWB,SWB/swb
identical in appearance to F1
B recessive outcome
aa
as above
cbcb
as above ii
as above as above wbwb
nil

in plain language recessive is
self/solid, sepia brown, golden, shorthair, abbytabby, narrowband  - - the undesirable  outcome
ratio recessive
50%

50%

50%


50%


undesirables
50%



50%


50%



50% of cats are solid,  of no use...of the remaining 50% , 50% of them will be golden agouti--- of no use.. leaving 25 and of them 0% will be narrow band or ticked and of no use,  thus  12.5% are of interest in a progran that excludes AOV.
Alternate F2 breeding fi cat to f1 cat
F1 cat
Aa
Bb
Ccb
Dd
Ii
Ll
TAta
WBwb
SWBswb

F1 cat
Aa
Bb
Ccb
Dd
Ii
Ll
TAta
WBwb
SWBswb

A  outcome f1  to f1 A/-
B/-
C/-
D/-
I/-
L/-
TA/-
WB/-
SWB/-

B recessive outcome
aa
bb
cbcb
dd
ii
LL
tata
wbwb
swbswb

plain language
self/solid, champagne/lilac, golden, long hair, macheralclassic(spotted), narrow band, tipped - - - the undesirable outcome

ratio recessive
25%
25%
25%
25%
25%
25%
25%
25%
25%



undesirables
25%



25%
??
25%
25%
highly desirable but we do not know of the relationship with wideband


25% are solid, and of no use. Of the remaining 75%  - 25% are golden and of no use leaving 56.25% - - of these 25 % are not abby tabby (mackeral classic) and will show markings leaving 42.12% and of these 25% are narrow band leaving 31.6% of interest in the program
25% of these will be tipped  that is about 7% of total will be highly desirable

Thus we see that for the expedient of making a (31.6-12.5) =19% possibility of holding the shaded cat, and the tipped cat, the Burmese conformity is sacrificed when in fact breeding the f1 smokes and goldens will produce a shaded silver cat identical to an F1 increasing the 12.5% considerably.
note a lot of Chinchillas are not homozygous silver. Things get tougher.
note We have great difficulty undersanding that a single  cat litter can contain various breeds.


genetic table

symbol
name/s
recessive
name/s
A/-
agouti
a/a
non agouti, self
B/-
black
b/b
brown, chocolate
C/-
full colour, full expression
cb/cb
sepia, Burmese restriction (in Burmese), pointed
D/-
dense (pigmentation)
d/d
dilute, maltesing
I/-
inhibitor, silver
In the self cats [d/d]  this gene can be seen as a lighter colour and is called Caramel in blue tones, Taupe in lilac, and Apricot in cream tones.  They are sometimes talked of as the powder coats.  In  the dense [D/-] cats that are also  sepia [cbcb]  is is sometimes called the Berrington gene . It is most often identified in  b/b, cb/cb,  (champagne)cats. We suggest these terms not be used.
i/i
golden, not silver, rufosed, rofused
L/
short hair
l/l
longhair, semi longhair (there are 4 genes that add up to deliver the very long hair)
O/-(X)
orange, tortie (F only)
o/o
not orange (usually not noted)
Ta/-
abbytabby (our term)
ta/ta
not abbytabby, macheral tabby, classic tabby, spotted tabby
Wb/-
wide band,  shaded (in A/-), smoke (in a/a)
wb/wb
 narrow band, ticked, non smoke, (usually not noted)
Swb/-
narrow band, not tipped,  ticked (usually not noted) swb/swb
tipped or superwide band
ta/ta requires that we consider Mc and Sp.
Mc/
mackerel tabby
mc/mc
classic tabby
Sp/-
spotted tabby (this spotting can vary in name and apperance depending on if the cat is a mackerel or classic by bckground)
sp/sp
non spotted, (usually not noted)
updated mar '09


A smoke golden breeding  Paradox and Oprah
paradox 1Xop3=oprakit22andcrusader kit1&1
3 black golden tick -  one with long hair? -maybe
1 black self -male I believe
1 champagne self  - female?
1 platinum long hair   female/   -could be shaded or tipped              --------------------- became    Arctic Mist... below left
1 sable or Black?? shaded female  - who is fostered by Crusader   - - can be seen in rh side of photo--------- became    Olympia below right


.







Ongoing discussion and Responses these will be in date order most recent at the top

 
I understand that there are folks out there who are "heavily invested" in some of the genetics theory I am questioning. A number of comments have been received expressing well meaning concern for my cattery's well-being and relate to the politics of the Fancy. It is unfortunate that this is a reality.  I would hope that those who react in this negative manner might reflect upon their actions.
There are those who suggest it is supreme arrogance to challenge in the way we do, and I agree. It is just that as foundation Burmilla breeders we keep getting hit over the head with these breeding anomalies.
My hope is that others might now feel more able to come forward and speak up.

The following was received from Dr. L. Lyons Feb. 19 2010  "No test for silver yet."


There is one aspect of the politics I would like to address and that is a concern of the European Burmese breeders .


"We have here in Germany many problems with *Silver-Burmese*. "

For more on the Silver Burmese see  the Cranreuch web site  or google <Silver Burmese>.
It is unfortunate that the NZ cat fancy went in this direction. I understand that these early cats were from a Moggie breeding, not a Chinchilla, and that the self versions were incorporated into the Burmese gene pool. A number  of these cats have been imported into Europe and I have speculated they are the source of  Cinnamon [b
1] genetics. It has been a while since I have read this site. I will take any correction on this view.
The European Burmese breeders in CFA and CCA were cognizant of this problem and reviewed pedigrees extensively to avoid any difficulties. I understand that they have been successful. There is no sympathy for Cinnamon in either registries.

It is this background that initiates an equal and vocal concern resulting in   "Silver in my Burmese - - No way", and suspicion of Burmilla breeders like ourselves..
In many (but not all) aspects, this concern is similar to that expressed by traditional Burmese breeders who were afraid of getting the red [O] genetics from the European Burmese. Most have now realized that "if you don't see it you don't have it".
"Tell me you started with a PURE colorbred Chinchilla Silver Persian and a Burmsese of European Type that did not have any Red factor cat in its pedigree for 25 generation"
We start with a registered "Chinchilla" in GCCF or a "Chinchilla Persian" in CCA and CFA - it would be nice if they were totally homozygous but is most cases they are not. The other member of the foundation breeding is a registered European Burmese. North American Traditional Burmese are not permitted. There are no restrictions as to the red genetics in the fore or background.
As to 25 generations  ???
"if you don't see it you don't have it". 
There is no white genetics in the Burmese, Chinchilla or Burmilla.
The Chinchilla is only allowed to be in the line once. Otherwise the outcome it's a Chin-ese ;-))) and we do not breed them.
There are no secrets here - everything we do is on our web site. Transparency and openness are our guiding principles.
"I have been to your site and I have not seen one cat that you call  Golden anything  to be a Golden. ( have any of these cats been DNA tested to be golden, have their hair shafts been analyzed..."
See Rufisn  or Rufus polygenes p 151 or p 58, p159 respectivly of Robinson's for variability in golden.  Most Burmese are golden.
As to DNA testing  - not all labs appear to do it and I have written to Dr. Lyons for clarification.  See her  FEb 19  response above...

also
"A modifying factor has also been hypothesized in shaded silver and chinchilla Persians whose fur turns pale golden in adulthood, due to low levels of phaeomelanin production. These cats resemble shaded or tipped goldens, but are genetically shaded or tipped silvers. This is probably related to the phenomenon known as "tarnishing" in silvers. "  quote from wikapedia

Fundamentally the "Silver Burmese", as selected and bred,  and the Burmilla have similar genetics (barring the Cinnamon).
They are both Agouti, Silver, Shaded cats [A/-, I/-, Wb/-. ]
All are dominant characteristics and as such under prevailing theory could not exist unseen.   (
if you don't see it you don't have it.)

Thus when I propose a theory for smoking that states Silver is unseen/epistatic  in the non agouit cat  - all hell breaks loose---
“Burmese are by definition non-silver, non-agouti -  where do you suggest the inhibitor gene would be coming from in the Burmese breed?  It would have to have been deliberately introduced,  so could you let us know where and when this happened,  and which cats were involved? “

and the question resonates!!! Big Time...

The existing theory says:  Non-agouti cats [aa] are either gold or silver  - -the smoke cats all appear silver- therefore  the non smokes are golden. hence
"Burmese are by definition non-silver"

The problem  - - this existing view can not explain  - - - a Burmese or any other solid cat - - producing a silver when bred to a golden ticked cat.
"A golden [i/i] to a golden can not produce a silver"  - - this is true 

 -  but they do ----- - - -and that is a well recorded fact in the literature,   that we have reproduced,    and documented numerous times.

--So  the existing theory is  "busted".


where is the error  ...  - - it can only be that the Burmese and any self solid cat is not by definition golden...


RE  "The kittens are not silver"--your theories are out the window.

The literature is also clear as noted above  they are silver   - -
BUT just in case you are not convinced---

In each litter pictured and (linked below) there is a golden sibling (beside  the kitten/s in question) SO   if the golden is golden then what is the other cat??  I have no answer and none has been forthcoming - - other than "ridiculous"   ;-))).. (Note it is not Dm as theorized as that apparently only works on dilute??)



"and try to "INVENT"  new color genetics that does not exist."

We have proposed Wide band [Wb/-] to be the source of the difference and the solution to the problem. This  genetics  is not of our making. See Gloria Stephens. A piece of genetics that exists in one cat  must  in principle  exist in all cats  particularly if it is dominant. Generally the recessives are seen as the mutations  and exist in a limited population.  We see widebanding as existing  across cat and dog varieties  - -  this genetics is fairly old.


Therefore a Burmese can be golden or silver but all Burmese (and self solid cats) are narrow band [wb/wb] that is a recessive and therefore homozygous.
Again wide band [Wb/-] is dominant and
"if you don't see it you don't have it".
A  sable Burmese  vs sable smoke difference then would be--

sable Burmese
a/a
B/-
cb/cb
D/-
i/i or I/-
L/L
Ta/-
wb/wb

non agouti
black
burmese sepia =black becomes sable
not dilute blue
golden  or silver
most are golden but not all
short hair
abby tabby
narrow band
(and = ticked in A/- cats)
sable smoked
a/a
B/-
cb/cb
D/-
i/i or I/-

ii = smoke of poor quality
L/-
Ta/-
Wb/-

wide band (and
= shaded in A/- cats)

2/18/10

The following are excerpts from emails received from Ms. Elaine Gleason quoted with permission.
Elaine has many titles with CCA including chair standards, is an international Judge, and association with catteries Stonetown, Mrs. G, and Hullabloo

I have two blue girls of different colour .... The one that is silvery has a fine coat while the one that has a dark blue colour .... Some of my blues have had a sandy glow as have my platinums. .... my aim is to have lighter pinker platinums. But I am content to say they are all the same colour, some just better than others.


Where it might be of concern to Burmese breeders is that I assume you like your cats sables to be very dark and your champagne to be likewise.
Thus they would be golden based.  If you also wish your blues a platinums to be light  then they would be silver based.

And that might not be a mixture you would wish in your breeding program.
Yes, I do want my sables very dark and I have lost that over the past few years bringing in new blood lines. As for the champagnes my main criteria is 'even colour'. I prefer the warm chocolate to the bitter chocolate, but the less masking the better. Sadly the only time champagne burms are the colour of champagne is when they are born.

Since your observations on the sandy colour cast of blue burmese, I've been thinking of other breeds and it is not uncommon to see silvery powder blue Persians (desireable) and dark blue Persians (undesireable) or powdered creams (desireable) and hot creams (undesireable). Same with Silver Tabby American Shorthairs (as well as other silver colours in other breeds) which by the time they reach adult class have 'tarnished' and have an apricot appearance (which is faulted).

Even Abys (with their 4 colours allowed in CCA & CFA) have various hues in other associations (remember the TICA cinnamon aby was also registered as a CFA red aby). I remember judging a blue aby being shown years ago which from across the room looked like a ruddy. As well I've also seen blues and fawns that look like they have a silver (white)  undercoat. However, this is a topic that is not for the faint of heart to talk about!!!!!

So is it genetics or is it colour faults?  I think I know what your answer will be, but I like to take the easier road and say its colour faults! : ))

Elaine

So what we are suggesting is:

Sable Burmese
a/a
B/-
cb/cb
D/-
 most are [i/i ]  golden    based  - desirable
those with lockets and show some marking are [I/-]  silver  - underneath - not desirable
wb/wb
Blue Burmese
"
"
"
d/d
dark browny blue are  i/i  golden based   - - not desirable
light powder blue  are [I/-]  silver based - - desirable
"
Champagne Burmese
"
b/b
"
D/-
dark version "less masking" are [i/i ]  golden   - - -desirable
light version "as when they are born" "barrington cat" are [I/-]  silver   - --not desirable
"
Platinum Burmese
"
"
"
d/d
dark  browny version  are  i/i  golden based   - - -not desirable
light powder version  are [I/-]  silver based - - desirable 
"

Thus ,  we say, if you breed a Sable Burmese who is  golden based [i/i] to  a Platinum Burmese of powder coat [I/-]
you are breeding:

sable Burmese
a/a
B/B
not carrying
cb/cb
D/D
not carrying
i/i
L/L
Ta/-
wb/wb
platinum(lilac)
Burmese
"
b/b
"
d/d
I/-
probably I/i
"
"
"
offspring

B/b

sable

D/d

not blue
 50%  i/i  & 50%   I /-, =1/2 of poor  quality

(If platinum is I/I,  all I/-  and are of poor quality)



if sable heterozygous
for B and D

50% champagne
50% sable

of those 50%  (25%)  platinum
of those 50% (25%) blue
of those 50% (12.5%)light 12.5% dark
of those 50% (12.5%)light 12.5% dark



Note: These numbers can be worked in any sequence I.e. of the  Champagne,  50% of them will be dark and --- etc.

Elaine forwarded the following
1 ..Linked a PDF file New colors in Siamese    caramel apricot , cinnamon and fawn
Linked a PDF file The History of Cinnamons (in Siamese)
Linked PDF file  Breeding chocolate points   a Pat Turner article from 1988

see also
Cat coat genetics the wikipedia page


Do Burmillas pose any threat to the E / Burmese breed pool?
NO
1) They are registered separately.  There is no  Burmese pool mixing, the crossing is out  not in.
2)
Given the visible /dominant genetics of the Burmilla there is considerably less possibility of contamination than E Burmese to Burmese, or Singapure to Abyssinian.
3) There is no corresponding objective between the breeds.  The objective is separation. The self solid cat is an undesirable outcome.

Given the disparity between the genetics that we have proposed and that used, we see a continuing lack of understanding resulting in incorrectly registered cats .
That is already occurring in the following areas.

Miss-identification of silver as golden.  Both in its visual aspects and as Dm genetics  See comments above.

Miss-identification of Smoke.
Notwithstanding our view of a "smoked" cat as being golden based or silver , based on the wide band [Wb/-] and tipping genetics [swbswb] , we see the possibility of 4 levels of "smoking." as outlined above.
Most fancies demarcate a smoke as having 50% color on the hair shaft. Such a cat could be either Agouti [A/-] nor non Agouti [a/a].
The only point of demarcation we see is the brick nose in the Agouti cat. We can not find any textual support for this comment at this time.
All "smokes "[a/a,..Wb/-] have a solid color nose similar in color to the paw pads.  The nose of Agouti cats is not always all brick and sometimes takes 2-3 weeks to develop.

Photos to come

Miss-identification of color 
While some readers may think this is too simple please remember may of these cats are tipped and may not show much color at all and  many do not develope the full color until 2-3 years of age.
Brown
Brown comes in 2 forms  sepia black  [B/-,cb/cb] and full expression brown [b/b, C/-]
In the no agouti [a/a] cat the nose color is a help ( no use in the brick nosed Agouit [A/-] , the paw pads to a lesser extent. 
This can be DNA tested.
Dilute cats
There is Burmese (sepia)blue [B/-, cb/cb, d/d] tuskerand full expression blue [B/-, C/-, d/d] and these are not differentiated, as the browns,  thus an inconsistant approach.
There is Burmese sepia lilac    [b/b, cb/cb, d/d]  phantom and full expression lilac (frost)   [b/b, C/-, d/d] harmony   again  are not differentiated, as the browns,  thus an inconsistant approach.
Dm genetics require the use of Taupe  - - - this is not used - - inconsistant approach.

Yet these same  folks chooses to identify  obscure Dm genetics. see chart above
Example sepia blue has been identified and withheld as being a Dm cat(caramel) when compared to a Full expression Blue.
"the judge that used to say all our blue cats were caramel and withheld challenges!!! ...Funny enough she judged my cb/cb d/d boy ... and said nothing!!! I had my DNA papers ready in case she questioned me but she never did!!  He is distinctly brown based but definitely with pink paw pads and a bit of brown/blue over the top.
The cat was tested via DNA cb/cb, d/d, A/a. B/b."

The same issues exist in the lilac  , "frost" being the darker version.
Dm genetics require the use of Taupe  - - - this is not used - - inconsistant approach.

This  miss-understanding of the genetics at play, identifies an effect as being related to one piece of genetics, whereas in fact it is/can be related to something very different .

We also have examples of dilute torties being identified as caramel. (see
DM articles  )Again what the eye sees may be the same, the underlying genetics is/can be totally different.


We do have a gene we would like to check.  I will report when we have an answer.
Best regards,
Leslie
Leslie A. Lyons, PhD      
Associate Professor 

There are lots of ref. to Dm on Wikipedia in a variety of animals.


two tippers produce a ticked
"I have bred two tipped cats [Wb/-, swbswb] and I got a ticked kitten [wb/wb] "       photos to get

parent 1
Wb/-
swb/swb
parent 2
Wb/-
swb/swb
offsring
wb/wb
swb/swb only outcome
 Both parents must be  Wb/wb  heterozygous wide band



The following discussions are from the Burmese chat group in response to our mailing of the paper on unified silver
feb 24 2010



I saw once at a show what some referred to as "SmokED" Sable Burmese. The undercoat has a ice white tinge. It is otherwise refered to as a really unsound coat. The assumption has always been that the I gene is non-existent in the Burmese gene pool. I don't think this is a fair assumption. I have since read about low-grade smoke Siamese. In both the Burmese and the Siamese, the coat is unsound by it's nature. As you part back the furs on the sables in particular the color gets lighter at the roots. Because of the natural unsoundness, I do not find it hard to believe that low-grand smokes wouldn't just hide. Particularly, I think that low-grade smokes might hide very well indeed in platinums and blues.

But... I don't believe lockets are related to the smoke gene. I always figured lockets were like white or dark spots on humans, some error doesn't get the pigment to a specific location. If perchance you do find an intact Burmese male with a locket (good luck) and you bred it with a silver Burmilla, I would lay money down that all the kittens will be non-silver, ii.

Now, onto your discussion of caramel:
Caramel is not well understood, nor particularly well accepted. TICA for example does not accept caramel colors. One important correction to your article is that you state that red is modified to apricot. But, instead it is cream that is modified to apricot. The postulated effect of caramel is that the dilution gene is modified. I have read RATHER conflicted reports of what the effect is. Some say that it adds brown others say it adds a metallic sheen. Now, those sound like direct opposites.
correct cream is modified to aproicot

I find it difficult to understand in light of how the dilution gene works. The dilution gene works by breaking up the pigment granules and clumping them together leaving white space. So, you get gray (blue) by breaking up black.

The problem comes when you factor in Burmese breeder experience. We all know how much variability comes with champagne, it can vary in tone and darkness. So, it isn't so difficult to believe that the same phenomena occurs in platinums. If it is the SAME phenomena, a dilute modifier it CANNOT be, as champagnes are not dilute.
Yes

And ending up with a brownish cast to a Burmese coat shouldn't surprise anyone. The Burmese gene specifically destroys melanin. When you destroy melanin it goes from black to brown.

Personally, I'd like to see a definitive picture of caramel in a cat that was not pointed, mink, or Burmese so that it could be proven to not be part of the normal variation caused by the albino series. But, so far, all I have seen have been Burmese and Siamese with the caramel effect.

~Renee

Feb 24
> In both the Burmese and the Siamese, the coat is unsound by it's  nature. As you part back the furs on the sables in particular the color gets lighter at the roots.<
I don't know how you can call this unsound if all Burmese and Siamese exhibit this characteristic. While it may be unsound in other breeds, it is NOT unsound in Burmese and Siamese. Blame is on that old thermo-responsive gene.

Maybe your reference to "smokED sable" is actually a kitten or very young adult with what we often call a mouse or mousy coat. It is more of a thick undercoat. Oh, I know you are going to say that Burmese are single coated, but what is that we get out with a thinning blade? The undercoat is more common in kittens and cats living in colder climates. When I get cats back from the Midwest in the winter, they always have a thick undercoat that I don't see on them in California. I also have a line of cats that have a coat which appears to have a thick undercoat until about 7-8 months old when it sheds off to a close lying coat.

Lockets..... Leslie told me that when our white spots are on the midline, they are a midline closure defect, not genetic. According to Lorraine Shelton's genetics article on her website, they may occur more often in certain lines, so can we say that this midline closure defect is genetic like the craniofacial defect?
This is interesting I did not know about this. Thanks.

Now I have to bow out. I don't know nothin' 'bout silver.

Donna
Feb 24
Right, it would be unsound if it were compared to other breeds, but in our breed it is not considered a fault. Still the color on a Burmese is never, "sound to the roots." Fortunately the standard makes no such mention of "sound color." But, perhaps that ambiguity has allowed "smokey" cats to be not penalized.

The smoked cats (I have actually seen more than one example!) were both adults. One whole male fairly young adult, and one older spayed female. Winter coat was not the issue with either of these because I remember the months of the shows. Even so, with a winter coat (and really I DO think it depends on the cat how much you get) on a sable, it still doesn't look white and fluffy. My two sables here are in the midst of winter and their coat when flipped back is still brown.

I agree that kittens and young cats can have more pale undercoat and more downyness, however in the examples I saw it was a like a white line. So much so that I believe they were low-level smokes. I definitely believe smoke could be hiding out in the Burmese, given that pure Siamese have been described as low grade smokes as well. Anyway, it would be a SERIOUS fault and one that should be bred out if found. And, I do believe it could hide a lot easier on the platinums and blues. Given the color of the platinum coat it would be very difficult to tell true white from the lighter roots of a platinum.

Anyway, it's always been a theory I ascribed to given what I had seen in some cats, and was pleased to see someone else thought so, and furthermore had some breedings that strongly suggested hidden smokes.

~Renee

Caution re term "smoke" 'cause it has a technical genetic meaning to many - -   "smoked effect" is better?? I like that.
Could we use the term  Hidden Silver??

Interesting, Renee. I understand better what you were describing. I did not realize that you were talking about a distinct white line. I am not sure that I have ever seen that. If you get a chance, please take some pictures for us. YES Also, we might consider asking judges if they are  seeing it.

Yes, I think that if we have a smoke gene lurking in our breed, we need  to take action.

Donna


Again I believe it is not the wide band gene lurking,  it is the silver and given Elaine's  comments  above depending on what you are breeding you may be selecting for or against it as the case may be.

So where are you proposing that the inhibitor gene has come from in Burmese?  That would have to indicate outcrossing to silver cats at some point.  We have never seen this in the UK. 
Yes you have seen this,  it is the DM you all talk about and it is in both the Burmese and Siamese.  Your cats come from here within the last 25 years see Spitshine and Halton Ridge.
All Burmese have an "unsound" coat -  this is due to the effect of the burmese gene.  The coat is paler at the roots,  but not actually white. 


Lockets,  belly/groin spots etc are nothing at all to do with the inhibitor gene -  they are white,  not silver - totally different.
Please state source of opinion.

Naomi
feb 25

I suggest the inhibitor gene in Burmese that shows up as very very low grade smokey coats came from the Siamese back in the 1930's and 1940's, and that it hides in a Burmese coat because of the nature of the color in burmese coats, it can be hard to see.

I believe that one of the examples of a non-identified silver that was referenced in the original article (which is well worth the read) was a cream European Burmese. I don't think he identified which country in Europe the cat descended from, perhaps you are right and it did not come out of the UK. His entire thesis about powder coated cats revolves around cats with the red and blue genes, which as many know is not in the CFA Burmese.

However, I do believe it is also in the American gene pool, as per my first sentence I think it's been with us all a LONG time, way before the breed was first exported to England. Personally, I think the sables show up that "smokED" coat much easier than you might see it in any other color, merely due to the contrast.

~Renee

YUP    actually Porcelain Angel pedigree can be traced. She was mixed English /North American when we we doing that. Her grandsire was Kupro Pagan Prince  and his pedigree is posted.

Were Siamese outcrossed to Chinchillas as long ago as the 30s-40s?  If so then I guess "silver in Burmese" is a possibility.  However,  white lockets in Burmese are certainly not that uncommon,  but they're not due to the silver gene.

Naomi
Feb 25
These were not my cats that I saw, but I saw evidence of the smoking effect on the legs and the tail and the back. I do not remember handling the face. I never handled the male, only the older spay.

I had always been hesitant to call them smokes and instead called them smokey or smoked, as smoke isn't recessive so it shouldn't appear.

However, in one of the references is a statement from Dr. Pedersen, in which it it is quoted that cats that are not smoke have been reported to breed as smokes, which is what he used to explain his theory.

Perhaps the ancestry of the Asians, ie: chinchilla Persians might explain why they have a higher degree of smoking. The Chinchilla Persians have been bred for over a hundred years based on that smoke gene. But, in Burmese seriously low-grade or non-existant expression would have been favored.

~Renee
  Feb 25
If that were true we would see smoky in Tonks too, and it doesn't happen.
Joanne
They claim there was red in the Siamese thus some "fawn" Tonks are seen, but I have to say no fawn Tonks have been born to our cattery nor smokes or smoky Burmese.  No fawn Burmese either.  I think the ' other colors are bred in by another way because the cats who exhibit the other colors only come out of certain lines, not al of the gene pool in generall.
Joanne
Some breeders mixed in outcrosses for better health long ago but didn't register them that way, just registered them as Burmese and I suspect that is how some of the other colors trickled in.  Also how do we know some of the foundation vats were really "purebred"?
Joanne
Feb 25
Just to be clear I understand  Fawn  [b1b1, d/d] to be the dilute of Cinnamon [b1b1, D/- ]and that  the b1gene discussed in all texts.

Surely if the inhibitor gene really was in any Burmese gene pool,  it would be widespread by this time,  as a dominant gene. This isn't the case.   What should be done, in the absence of a silver DNA test as yet,  is to breed one of these "Burmese smokes" to a Bombay -  you'd be very unlikely to mistake a black smoke for a Bombay ;)))

Naomi

I predict that would never occur as I suggest both cats are homozygous narrow band [wbwb]  Has any ever done that?
Feb 25
It's an interesting thought, but very confusing reading and tries to pull too many disparate things into one grand unifying  theory.  Wide band has been very much debated and I know from personal correspondence with Roy Robinson that he didn't believe in a "wide band gene" but accepted there was a wide band effect.   Since wide band is an effect and not necessarily a gene, the super wide banding is likely to be the result of additive genes - inherit just one and you get shading, inherit several and you get tipping.  And here's the crux of the matter - cat breeders are actually tracking effects, not genes!  Identical effects can result from entirely different genes (different loci) or from groups of interacting genes and the binary model just won't work (some of my gene tables for figuring some things out are starting to look more like Rubik cubes).
Not withstanding your comments Robinson's  4 edition p 138 states : " but the gene has been theorized as dominant (either complete or incomplete) and has been provisionally symbolized by Wb (Robinson, unpublished observations)." Additionally Stephens, who also had contact with Roy Robinson, used Wb/- in her text and ran it as a genetic string.
Further I have photo  example of 2 Tipped cats producing a Ticked , enroute. I have noted the genetics of that above. Would you agree that such a breeding would not be possible under your explaination and would be possible under the theory I have proposed?

Can I point out an error in terms?  You say "Epistatic means unseen".  Epistatic actually means "seen because it masks other genes at different loci" e.g. epistatic white (often erroneously called dominant white) masks all other colours, but is at a different locus.  Hypostatic is the converse and refers to an unseen trait - to see it you would have to eliminate all genes that are epistatic to it (plus any dominant alleles at the same locus).  I think if you get epistatic/hypostatic correct your theory makes more sense to a reader.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistasis - The gene whose phenotype <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype> is expressed is said to be *epistatic*, while the phenotype altered or suppressed is said to be *hypostatic*.
I stand corrected I took my meaning from Robinsons P 40 "Epistasis , also known as masking---" However Stedmans Medical  edit 24 edit makes your point so "Silver is Hypostatic in a self solid cat". I will correct the text. Thanks.


I'm not personally familiar with powder coat, but do those cats darken with age?  Since the colourpoint allele is temperature dependent and some Siamese cats have darker or lighter bodies, I wondered if similar might hold true with sepia?  Is powder coat explicable in terms of polygenes in the same way that solid cats can have different depth of colour (solid blue shorthairs and "self" reds being the most commented on for variable depth of colour) or has it been observed inherited in Mendelian fashion as a discrete trait?  Could it relate to the hair structure not just the pigment density - have hairs been analysed under a microscope to see the shape/arrangement/density pigment granules compared to non-powder coat?  All other possibilities need to be discounted before you are left with a hypostatic silver theory.
I am surprised given the  comments on this page and the proliferation of Dm comments on the internet that you are unfamiliar with the light and dark versions of the blue , lilac and
cream cats.  Most Burmese darken somewhat with age.
I see the variations available in the red [O] cat as being due to..... pointing or not, agouti or not, silver or not, black or not long before any discussion of Dm or any other piece of genetics. That is why they are not mentioned. I would suggest that all of the restrictions you place above  on silver theory should have been run on Dm and that you are arguing against yourself  between the para.  above and below. ????
Having said that I believe is the the cream cats that most clearly exhibit the "Dm effect"  because of the underling silver and the profound affect that silver has on the phaeomelanin production as against eumelanin production.
What genetic explaination can you propose for "solid cats breeding as smokes"? Please explain in genetic terms  your views on how a solid (black or any other color) cat when bred to a golden can produce a silver outcome.

"Caramel by definition is confused for it cannot be both lilac and blue based. It needs to be clearly defined or abandoned." I disagree, I believe your understanding of how genes interact to produce visual effects that is faulty.  If there is a modifier gene you could get the same end colour (visually) from 2 different base colours (genetically).  It depends on what the Dm gene is modifying (the expression of a protein) which is different from mixing paint. Two different original proteins (relating to colour expression) could be modified by such a gene and end up with almost identical expression after modification. You ask how does adding brown make something lighter? Brown (in terms of colour, not genetics) comes in a variety of shades ranging from fawn to chocolate, so it's not as counter-intuitive as it may seem! Bear in mind you are modifiying hues, not mixing paint!
Again I am surprised. Surely you agree there is a difference in color between the full expression colors and the burmese restricted colors of Blue and Lilac/Platinum.
I already have comfirmation based on DNA analysis - - of judges identifying a full expression Blue and a Burmese blue as being the result of Dm genetics. This is a signigicant error. Do you not agree?
Robinsons does not agree with what you are saying for it names Caramel as the light of blue and Taupe as the light of Lilac and Apricot the light of cream.  Are you saying a light blue = a dark lilac? And would that be Full expression or not. What a hodge podge.
We do  disagree that for some
"you could get the same end colour" as in burmese restricted black [B/-, cb/cb] and full expression brown [b/b, C/-] .

I'm also not persuaded by your comments on Barrington Brown as lightening the coat so a hypostatic silver would be more visible.  The comparison to black "panthers" is a red herring that simply confuses your theories.  A problem with this comment is that there are black leopards and black jaguars and these have different types of melanism with different modes of inheritance producing the same visual effect.  In leopards melanism is recessive melanism, but in jaguars it is incomplete dominant (a black jaguar with 2 copies of the dominant allele will be darker than a black jaguar with only one). A recessive Barrington Brown cannot be equivalent to both types of "panther" melanism so you need to define that you are comparing a visual effect, not a gene.
See Wikipedia for both cats
I am not sure I understand your point here for I said:     

"We see this effect as similar to what one sees at the zoo when looking at a Panther.  In bright sunlight and in reflection we can see the underlying patterns and colors."
Patterns are made of light and dark by contrast  and are visible , in an Abby tabby cat one would not see a pattern but the light or dark should still be visible. We are suggesting it is.
1) We have bred silver kittens from a solid light brown male (champagne)and a golden female.
2) If the theory proposed is valid then the genetics should apply in all cases ?? So we look for it.
3) I do have a email supporting this view from a geneticist in England some years ago  but I can not find it.



Regarding lockets, it has long been posited that there's a separate locketing/brisket spotting gene.  The normal white spotting gene is already very variable, probably due to other genes in the genotype affecting its expression in combination with developmental effects .  A cat with one white spotting gene could have so few white hairs that these are not noticed in the coat, but may not be suppressed in its offspring due to different mixes genes being inherited.  Admittedly white lockets are more easily overlooked in silvers than in solids.  .

See other comments.
Do you agree breeding a locketed sable male burmese  to a golden tipped female and producing silver "smoked" kitten would be proof of concept?


The idea of a hypostatic mechanism (NOT epistatic) for silver/golden is interesting and not impossible since different genes with different modes of inheritance could give the same visual effect (as with melanism in leopards and jaguars) by affecting the same proteins in slightly different ways. However, have you considered the possibility of a third allele at the I locus - an allele that is recessive to i (golden) but produces a degree of silver? This would be recessive to both I and i rather than hypostatic and a non-silver cat would carry it as a hidden.

Given my read of  the definition above and the lack of definition for hypostasis or hypostatic should we not say:

The idea of an epistasis  for silver/golden...?

Wow,  anyone else suggesting this?? Would you care to run it on a checkerboard and test it out?
Certainly the "tarnished"  silver is well documented.
So far I am well within the boundaries of known and agreed text reference. (except on lockets)

I think inheritance theory has to move away from expecting binary results in all cases and move towards "fuzzy logic".  Sure genes occur in the form of 2 alleles at each locus (ignoring those on the X & Y), but the recessive/dominant model is a very simplistic view (classical Mendelism) and looks at visible traits, not genes.  There is also co-dominance where neither of a pair is fully dominant or fully recessive to the other.  There are genes at other loci, inherited separately, but affecting the same proteins and modifying a supposedly binary trait (affecting the penetrance of the genes for the desired trait, masking the trait, modifyingthe expression of the trait).

Sounds like route to full blown chaos theory ??;-))


Sarah Hartwell

Feb 25
I also dispute the connection between lockets and smokes. Real good smokes don't have lockets, either... I think the smattering of white hairs you sometimes see could be lockets (depending on their location on the body) or could be folicle damage, aging, or disease. Breeding with cats without white hairs (or without finding them ever) can still yield kittens with white hairs.

That said, all smokes and silvers out there do not only come from Chinchilla Persians. Many of the Siamese used in the original Burmese outcrosses were also imported. For, example Tai Mau was an import, as was Oriental Nanki Pooh of Newton. These Siamese outcrosses had unknown parentage, it is definitely possible they had a smoke ancestor, but most likely NOT a Persian ancestor.



Just being dominant does not mean it must be wide-spread. The frequency of a gene is based on selection pressures. White is dominant and not terribly common due to selection pressures against it. I believe that if the smoke gene could exist with such a small visibility or no visibility at all (per the citation) that it could survive in a gene pool in low numbers. Say you have a queen that is a non-visible smoke. Some of her kittens have sound coats, and some of them have poor color. The breeder pets out kittens with poor color, and keeps one with good color, that one with good color would look like them other but could be a low-grade smoke or a non-smoke.

Anyway, the article suggested that it would be in very low numbers. Personally, I doubt he'll find a smokED Burmese to breed with they aren't common. I've seen two in different parts of the country that were not related.

Additionally, I do believe that indeed there is a test breeding that shows his point. Here's what he wrote:

"cream [male Burmese] was bred to a golden, ticked Burmilla. He produced a silver kitten. (For
parents and kittens see web site. #10 and #11)
Over the years we have continued to see this "unexplainable" result of a
'golden' bred to a Burmese (who is supposed to be golden) delivering silver. In
fact it is to the point where we can predict this possibility.
Most folks hereabouts who breed European Burmese are familiar with the
term "Powder Coats". It is the descriptor for those cats that are lighter in color
as against the term "high color" for those that are darker."

I'm just arguing that his theory could very well be possible and would explain 2 cats I have seen. But of course there are non-genetic explanations for the "smokED" effect that I have seen. And again, I'm hesitant to use the word, smoke.

~Renee

There seems to be a consensus that the locket is a developement issue.  SmokED is a great term. I would still like to try that breeding

Feb 25
Id bet you any money that the "silver" kitten produced from a golden and a cream Burmese was actually a cbcb non-silver agouti  - I've seen this mistake made very frequently,  and have made it myself when I was new to breeding Asians. The burmese gene makes the ground colour of non-silver agouti cats much paler than in the corresponding full colour equivalent.  So pale as to appear virtually identical to silver in young kittens - and dilution just adds to the illusion.
That's the example given by the brown ticked tabby I bred,  whose copyrighted photo he has used withuot permission on his website.  This cat (from my first Asian litter in 1993) was initially registered as silver but as he got older it became clear that he wasn't.

Naomi

I think you are grabbing a straws here.  Your position as projected is all golden cats that are pointed appear silver???  We have lots of golden cbcb cats on the web site.    I have provided the text references  for my position  - -   they say a cat that is not clearly golden is silver. All the texts refer to the solid as breeding as a smoke which it their terms , at that time, denote silver.
I have added another reference that also describes the increase in the tarnishing of a silver cat with age..
If you can provide any valid reference as to the contrary,  I will post it.

Feb 25
It's perhaps worth noting that the cattery concerned had many American Burmese in its "European" Burmese lines, particularly during the 1990s. I find it hard to figure out what's what from the website but I think the cream European Burmese referred to in the article were from mixed North American/U.K. lines.

Debbie Howard

Feb 26
Yes

A solid to a golden tipped produces a silver Burmilla
Amrit , X Bella Donna  =Moonstruck
These are large files, untouched,  unposed, unwashed, at 300 dpi and can be blown up


X=
A Champagne self Burmilla and a Golden Platinum Shaded Tortie deliver a Champagne shaded silver female Burmilla.
Champagne Burmilla
a/a
b/b
cb/cb
D/-
I/-
wb/wb
o/x
Swb/swb
Golden Platinum Shaded Tortie A/-
b/b
cb/cb
d/d
i/i
Wb/-
O/o
Swb/swb
Champagne shaded silver A/-
b/b must be,
verified by paws

cb/cb must be
D/-
I/-
Wb/-
o/o
Possible tortie
not seen

swb/swb
??
If Bella was silver the tortie cream markings do not show - - the I genetics  would wash them out  - -see smokes and cameo's.
Thus we know from the outcome  the the Boy is silver based and we make it so.
We have examined the girls paws and mouth  - there are no tortie markings .and the pattern is symmetrical and even throughout.
Both parents are 1/2 Burmese.
Given the Moonstruck's markings she may be swbswb  - -Tipped and that would come from both parents .

Two  breedings

First
This analysis of the breeding outcome (not from Horizons cattery) below  is presented as:
1) It proves the case of the variety and source of the smoke conjecture presented in the paper  "Unified.. silver".
2) It proves the brick nose theory(brick nose =agouti, solid color nose =nonagouti)  IF we can get a DNA lab test  of kitten 2 & 3.
3) It illustrated the case that smoke and shaded designations are not and can not be made on the basis of % of silver on the hair shaft.
4) It demonstrated the difficulties presented by the Burmilla in color and pattern descriptions - -there is no superiority here we get them wrong all the time ourselves.
5) It provides a background for the future of these kittens - -line breeding has potential for failure , access to outcross is required, and such cats must be carefully chosen.
male x female Burmilla
produce
kitten 2 [Brown Shaded Silver Burmilla) (Reserved)]breeder and 3 Brown Shaded Silver Burmilla) (Reserved)pet
so says the breeder.......who provided these photos on her web site  of the parents above aand the kittens below
2  and 3  all 5

Kittens 2 and 3 of   5  are seen as smokes ??  is a match to theory below-- and of questionable registration.

genetic breakdown
note the uncolored genetics are backed up by a genetic lab test
male Burmilla
A/a
b/b
cb/cb
D/D
I/-
L/-
Wb/-
o/x
Ta/-
becomes
Ta/Ta
swb/swb
female Burmilla
A/a
B/b
cb/cb
D/D
I/-
L/-
Wb/-
oo
ta/ta
swbswb
kittens
.25 AA
.50 A/a
agouti
.25 a/a-smoke
.50 B/b
sable
.50 b/b champagne
cbcb

black not possible
D/D

blue/
lilac
not possible
no ii
at least 1 parent is homozygous
no ll
at least 1 parent is homozygous
no wbwb
at least 1parent is homozygous
all
all are
Ta/-



all
As dame is not abby tabby any line breeding will produce  macheral/classic and an uneven coat. Possibly seen as undesirable -can be improved with Burmese breedings.
The Black Burmilla is not possible in this line. undesirable   - can not be improved with Burmese breedings.

Second


The following are a litter of interest from 2 shaded cats both meeting a strict Burmilla standard with a 1 in 4 result.
  dame Olympia findus6 sire Findus
4  kittens below

 
2 brown smoke boys mar 2010

1  black golden shaded boy   - -

1 black silver shaded boy

Burmilla kittens born Dec 14 "09 to
Olympia (  a Black shaded female F2 Burmilla) X Findus ( Sable Shaded (tipped) Silver short hair Burmilla)
1 Black shaded silver male ( clearly tipped)
2 Brown silver smoke males.
1 black golden ticked male
the rational as to the existing genetics used below are detailed on the individual cat tiles linked
Findus male Burmilla
A/a
B/b
cb/cb
D/D
I/i
L/?
prob L/L
Wb/wb
o/x
Ta/Ta

swb/swb
Olympia A/a
B/-
C/cb
D/-
I/i
L/?
Wb/Wb
probable
oo
Ta/-
Swb/swb
kittens
.25 AA
.50 A/a
.25 aa
B/-
.5 C/-
.5 cbcb

D/-
.5 I
.5ii
L/
All are
Wb/-
oo
All are
.5 are Swbswb

3 are def swbswb
2 of the 4 are smokes as predictable with dark noses
2 of 4 are black 2 are sable as predictable
1 of 4 is clearly golden  as predictable
The golden boy is clearly wide band and probably tipped and thus of interest as a define example.
The slightly darker smoke is of interest as either golden based or not tipped.


Both breedings illustrate the difficulties of Burmilla breeding IF the so called AOV cats are not allowable for registry.